And, after Jesus shed his blood for "a perfect sacrifice to which nothing needs be added", we are supposed to have a self-sacrificing spirit and sacrifice our time and energy to be saved.--Ephesians 2:8 and 9
DID GOD CREATE THE BEST OF ALL POSSIBLE WORLDS???
by Terry 60 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
-
-
Terry
Even a perfectly created spinning top, will finally stop and fall over. Even perfect is relative.
I'll treat your analogy very carefully. It is a false analogy. But, I need to demonstrate why.
First, we need to parse the term "Perfect".
Perfect as to Purpose is my intended meaning.
A spoon is perfect for eating soup and a fork is not. That sort of perfect.
God's purpose for man is what we next need to focus upon here.
What did God intended for man to do? Man was "designed" and "built" with that end in view. If God made man's nature "perfect" for realizing this purpose, He would have succeeded in his design.
God bespoke man's purpose.
This thread will magnify the manner in which God brought about (or didn't) man's nature.
The nature of man vs man's bespoken purpose from God.
Now, back to your analogy.
A perfectly made top is our subject.
In what way can a top be expected to overcome the force of gravity? Earth is a top which spins steadily in a vacuum without stopping (so far) because there is only the most vanishingly small perturbations from the gravitational interference of other bodies in space.
Is this the sort of top you reference?
You see, a man invents with an end in mind. If the purpose of his invention is realized, we can declare his invention perfect.
Building a purposeful man whilst including a mechanism (rational choice) which could disrupt that purpose is a design flaw.
Insisting that man would not be man without this "choice" mechanism is silly.
Man would not be the sort of man who sinned and brought death upon the Earth, that's all.
I think that is a mechanism worth omitting!
Could God have done it? To say "no" is to make it impossible for a man to be perfect. If Jesus were truly a man, then, his perfect behavior nullifies this possibility.
God could create a man who could perfectly realize God's purpose (because Jesus did.) Adam (and Eve!) and everybody else (but Jesus) did not.
This means, this is NOT the best of all possible worlds.
Why?
The world in which Adam was made as perfectly as Jesus would be the better of the two worlds.
-
Deputy Dog
The world in which Adam was made as perfectly as Jesus would be the better of the two worlds.
1. Jesus was not made.
2. Better for who?
-
Terry
To make man without Free Will, is to make him not man. It could never be a boon, because the object of that boon would not exist. It is a logical impossibility. God can do anything that is possible, but the impossible is not possible. God cannot make a square circle. To make a finite free being incapable of evil is a square circle.
You are asserting that it is impossible to make man a MAN without granting him the ability to rationally screw up by wrong choice. I see huge differences between Jesus as a perfect man and Adam as a "perfect" man.
I won't go into laborious detail here. I'll just stick to one point (which I feel is the most important).
Here is an experiment.
We have a room in which a man is placed that has two exits. Exit A is marked "Garden of Pleasure". Exit B is marked "Death and destruction".
The man is told by an Authoritative voice that his only way out is to go through one of those two doors.
Further, he is instructed that his fate is in his own hands when it comes to his choice of exit.
What will a rational man do?
A rational man will take the door marked "Garden of Pleasure" and avoid the door marked "Death and destruction."
However.....
What if a different voice comes over the Intercom warning him that the signs are misleading. They've been switched!
The man has a rational dilemma. Should he trust the signs or the voice of warning?
The complexity of the decision is striking!
The rational man has to devise a strategy which clarifies the total information available. One strategy is trust.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Reboot.
Instead of the man walking into an empty room, let's bring the man into the same room where his wife is standing. (We'll leave out the part about her being naked.)
The wife tells him she opened the door marked "Death and Destruction" because a friendly voice clarified the situation to her about the switched signs! She now knows the right way out!!
What will the rational man do? Will he dispassionately trust the signs or will he rely on the experience of the wife?
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________
You see, the nature of the information given, the source of the information and the rational aspect of the decision making create tensions in influencing the actual decision.
An ordinary human cannot avoid errors of judgement in such situations. Why? Because human knowledge is not TOTAL. Humans rely on their network of either personal experience or trust.
I'm saying that God---by making man a rational thinker---allowed complexity of decision making into the pressure of choice UNNECESSARILY.
In the best of all possible worlds neither choice nor trust nor rational weighing of alternatives would vex man and thwart God's purpose.
Man would be instinctively given the innate ability to always do WHAT WAS BEST.
By not creating man in this way God guaranteed disobedience eventually. (And God certainly got that in spades both in heaven and upon Earth.)
-
BurnTheShips
Building a purposeful man whilst including a mechanism (rational choice) which could disrupt that purpose is a design flaw.
Insisting that man would not be man without this "choice" mechanism is silly.
How would making us with out the power to choose our actions, whether good or bad, not diminish us? It would make us less than what we are. Less than human. Subhuman.
Questions for Terry:
1) Do you have any children Terry?
2) Are they mechanisms?
3) What is their purpose?
4) If it would make them behave as Terry wants, would Terry circumscribe their free will?
Could God have done it? To say "no" is to make it impossible for a man to be perfect. If Jesus were truly a man, then, his perfect behavior nullifies this possibility.
God could create a man who could perfectly realize God's purpose (because Jesus did.) Adam (and Eve!) and everybody else (but Jesus) did not.
This means, this is NOT the best of all possible worlds.
Terry, your argument betrays your ignorance of what Christians believe Jesus was.
God did not create Jesus. Jesus is part of God. God took on a human form.
So no, God did not create a man that could not choose sin, God Himself took the form of a man. The man Jesus is both God, and human, at the same time.
Adam was not a God-man. He was a man.
-
Terry
Free Will is only the freedom to screw up.
How so? Explain yourself.
Take a light switch. The only possible options are 1.ON and 2. OFF
Who would design and install a light switch with a 3rd possibility?
1.ON
2.OFF
3.MAYBE on, MAYBE off
??????
You guarantee you cannot get a predictable result when you include option 3.
Why add unnecessary complexity when you want to get the EXACT result a two-way switch guarantees?
That is my explanation.
It makes perfect sense.
-
Terry
This thread, like the Bible, talks as though humans are the only living creatures on the planet. Animals were here for millions of years before we imploded on planet earth.
If they were created one has to ask why? They are an intrinsic part of the Eco system. If all life resolves around humans we have to ask why dangerous beasts were put here first to attack and kill the emerging human race?
Animals always act according to their nature. We call it instinct.
Humans always act according to their nature as well. And that is my Topic subject: rational choice.
What makes rational choice PERFECT in achieving God's purpose when it clearly only muddled the whole operation?
Man is no less MAN if rational choice is eliminated from his nature and something more akin to instinct were put in place.
We don't treat animals as if they are unthinking and unfeeling robots do we? Certainly not.
In many ways they make superior companions! Their LOYALTY is always mentioned.
Isn't that really what God intended for man?
I see your point, certainly. What do we make of the existence of dinosaurs tearing each other to chunks of red meat for millions of years if the purpose of the Earth is to house perfect man?
It is all a muddle!
-
Terry
I don't know how it could be "better" than it is. "Better" as in, easier and less painful? If life were easier and less painful, then we wouldn't have evolved to be so smart. If we hadn't have evolved to be so smart, then this discussion wouldn't be taking place. I wouldn't want the world to be any other way. Even though it sucks a lot of the time. And everything dies. Sometimes horribly.
Some of the most important ways in which life on Earth could be improved beyond the current status would involve irrational choices like war.
By making wrong decisions man has enslaved himself and created all manner of difficulty.
Simply knowing things improves man's lot as technology proves. But, the everyday choices which include complexities thwarted by emotional attachments thwarts man's clearly knowing the way.
Eliminating the doubt and installing that instinctive internal guidance system would be a vast improvement.
Which is better? Global Positioning System in your car or stopping at a crossroads and asking Farmer Jones for directions?
-
Terry
How would making us with out the power to choose our actions, whether good or bad, not diminish us? It would make us less than what we are. Less than human. Subhuman
When you say "make us less that what we are" you aren't stopping to consider exactly what WE ARE.
Weak. Sinful. Imperfect. Sick. Dying. Ignorant. Widely varying in access to education, health, opportunity.
I'll stop there.
This is what being AS we are makes us WHAT we are.
You really want this?
Do you actually think having the ability to CHOOSE to screw up your own life is BOON to mankind???
Without absolute knowledge that is exactly what choice comes down to: the ability to screw up your life.
-
BurnTheShips
“Freedom is the power of the will to act or not to act, to act this or that way; whereas it is the characteristic of necessary causes, as animals and inanimate beings, to produce their effects by an intrinsic necessity. Freedom of the will is a consequence of intelligence, and as such the most precious gift of man, an endowment which he can never lose without annihilating his own nature. Man must of necessity be free in every state of life, actual or possible, whether that state be the purely natural (status purœ naturœ), or the state of original justice in paradise (status justitiœ originalis), or the state of fallen nature (status naturœ lapsœ), or the state of regeneration (status naturœ reparatœ). Were man to be deprived of freedom of will, he would necessarily degenerate in his nature and sink to the level of the animal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molinism
Burn