DID GOD CREATE THE BEST OF ALL POSSIBLE WORLDS???

by Terry 60 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Terry

  You are using the object of that Creed, a man you do not believe in, to illustrate your point.

  Rather you are using an understanding of that object, which is other than what I accept, so you pose a dilemma that does not exist for me. You yourself say that Jesus did not sin, or was not capable of it as part of your argument.

  Hardly.

  You may well see Jesus solely and uniquely as the "object of that Creed" but, that does not make him ONLY that.

  Jesus is an object of thought for millions (maybe billions) of people who each think of him differently.

  Why do you or our Nicene fathers get to put the stopper on the bottle once for all time?
• 

  BurnTheShips

  Man craved to possess that which he DID NOT ALREADY possess: knowing what was good and evil. Else, the eating of the fruit would not have been the "knowledge of" good and evil implicit in its designation.

  Or perhaps Man had to goods to choose from:

  A greater: LOVE GOD

  or a lesser: LOVE SELF

  Both are good.

  Every decision, every thing, contains good.

  Sin is when the lesser good is chosen.

  Adam chose the lesser good.

  Burn
• 

  BurnTheShips

  Why do you or our Nicene fathers get to put the stopper on the bottle once for all time?

  That's not what I meant.

  What I meant was that your argument proceeded with the premise that Jesus was purely man, albeit perfect.

  That premise does not hold true for me, therefore your argument did not stand with me unless you proved the premise.

  Therefore, prove the premise to me, or choose another argument. But I'd rather you didn't try to prove the premise (the nature of Jesus), because that would totally derail the object of this little discussion.

  Burn
• 

  BurnTheShips

  Just posting this passage from the RC Catechism for reference (it does not answer the apparent paradox I outlined above):

  390 The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. 396 God created man in his image and established him in his friendship. A spiritual creature, man can live this friendship only in free submission to God. The prohibition against eating "of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" spells this out: "for in the day that you eat of it, you shall die." 276 The "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" 277 symbolically evokes the insurmountable limits that man, being a creature, must freely recognize and respect with trust. Man is dependent on his Creator, and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom.

  ...........................

  397 Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart and, abusing his freedom, disobeyed God's command. This is what man's first sin consisted of. 278 All subsequent sin would be disobedience toward God and lack of trust in his goodness.

  398 In that sin man preferred himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good. Constituted in a state of holiness, man was destined to be fully "divinized" by God in glory. Seduced by the devil, he wanted to "be like God", but "without God, before God, and not in accordance with God". 279

  399 Scripture portrays the tragic consequences of this first disobedience. Adam and Eve immediately lose the grace of original holiness. 280 They become afraid of the God of whom they have conceived a distorted image - that of a God jealous of his prerogatives. 281

  400 The harmony in which they had found themselves, thanks to original justice, is now destroyed: the control of the soul's spiritual faculties over the body is shattered; the union of man and woman becomes subject to tensions, their relations henceforth marked by lust and domination. 282 Harmony with creation is broken: visible creation has become alien and hostile to man. 283 Because of man, creation is now subject "to its bondage to decay". 284 Finally, the consequence explicitly foretold for this disobedience will come true: man will "return to the ground", 285 for out of it he was taken. Death makes its entrance into human history. 286
• 

  trevor

  The question you seem to be asking Terry is - Why would a loving God create man and woman with free will and then punish them for exercising choice. Of course you already know the answer - it never happened - it is just a story.

  The more one looks into the whole story of Adam and Eve, the more it becomes clear that the story has been written backwards, which often happens when authors write with the benefit of hindsight.

  Humans have not always been as conscious as they are now. Each advancement towards consciousness has bought greater freedom of choice. The reason we have fallen out of harmony with nature is that we have used our free will to dominate it.

  We are collectively damaging the Garden of Eden, our planet, in a way that was not possible before we developed consciousness and free will.

  We can not expect a God who allegedly walked in the Garden of Eden to help us.

  Analysing the story of Adam and Eve is like studying the seven dwarves in an attempt to understand Snow White and her motives.
• 

  Terry

  What I meant was that your argument proceeded with the premise that Jesus was purely man, albeit perfect.

  That premise does not hold true for me, therefore your argument did not stand with me unless you proved the premise.

  The law of the Talon is equivalency. What Adam was Jesus should be no MORE than.

  If Adam was a God Man, then--yes, I see your point.

  Premise clear?
• 

  Terry

  Every decision, every thing, contains good.

  Sin is when the lesser good is chosen.

  Adam chose the lesser good.

  A bit reckless of you.

  You've attached a rather singular definition.

  What was Eve deceived about, then?

  I'm not a moral relativist. Good is always the most practical.

  Adam's choice was rational. By God's standard it was unacceptable, that's all. The penalty was greater than what was stated and forewarned.

  There is a slip up in the telling of this tale. A glitch.
• 

  Terry

  The Roman Catholic Church's parsing of the Fall of Man is just one among a great many

  Perhaps the chief problem a Christian has at the buffet table of variegated goodies is the improbable means of determining which is best.

  Might I remind you that the Catholic Church uses its Majesterium to foreclose all "other" opinion save its own and assert certain Truth.

  Protestants have a thorny puzzle, indeed. Martin Luther's Sola Scriptura means any Christian will only need his bible and God's Holy Spirit to become informed of what is decidedly True.

  Contradictory "Truths" abound as is attested by the multifarious denominations calling themselves CHRISTIANITY.

  If it were all so simple, clear-cut and black and white as the reading of the Genesis story there could be no muddle--yet, there is.

  What it comes down to, really, if we are all honest about this matter....

  Each believer selects a flavor that has inherent appeal to his own palette and declares it to be THE ONE!

  My palette has gone sour, however.

  I'm stuck looking at it as though it might makes some kind of GENUINE SENSE!

  Not yet it doesn't!
• 

  Terry

  Analysing the story of Adam and Eve is like studying the seven dwarves in an attempt to understand Snow White and her motives.

  Perry isn't Bashful about being so Dopey when he quibbles with his Grumpy nonsense.

  But, it doesn't seem to stop him because it makes him Happy. However, it makes me so Sleepy I think I'm going to end up at the Doc for a prescription. I've become so allergic to the nonsense it is making me Sneezy!
• 

  BurnTheShips

  The law of the Talon is equivalency. What Adam was Jesus should be no MORE than.

  In his human nature Jesus was no more than.

  It is the human nature that died, not the divine.

  Burn