Any Former Elders?

by ItsJustMe 48 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  wannahelp

  Hi Pureheart,

  You said:

  "Hey yall,
  *** w81 9/15 31 If a Relative Is Disfellowshiped . . . ***
  Should he die while disfellowshiped, arrangements for his funeral may be a problem. His Christian relatives may like to have had a talk at the Kingdom Hall, if that is the local custom. But that would not be fitting for a person expelled from the congregation. If he had been giving evidence of repentance and wanting God’s forgiveness, such as by ceasing to practice sin and by attending Christian meetings, some brother’s conscience might allow him to give a Bible talk at the funeral home or grave site. Such Biblical comments about the condition of the dead provide a witness to unbelievers or comfort to the relatives. However, if the disfellowshiped person had still been advocating false teachings or ungodly conduct, even such a talk would not be appropriate.—2 John 9-11."

  Maybe Fred or NYtelecom can comment, but I was under the impression that if one dies while being DF'd they have no hope what-so-ever of being ressurected..

  Oh, and BTW pure.. I agree that the above statements do not contrast well with "(Romans 6:7) For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin." But, then again, when has scripture ever stopped the WT from doing what they want? <sigh>
• 

  jst2laws

  Hello ItsJustMe
  Quote: “Do you feel that the "system" works?”

  If the objective is to help people feel Right with God, NO! The Bible teaching of Justification or feeling right with God is totally lost on Witnesses. Especially those who make a mistake and must face a ‘judicial committee’ of men who themselves do not feel ‘right with God’.

  Quote: “some of their friends get DF'd for a certain wrongdoing, and then someone else who did the same thing would only get a private reproof.”

  On this one I have to interject on unpopular thought. These men, as mislead as they are, look for what they consider evidence of “repentance”. Most, I believe, are willing to overlook or “show mercy” if the person appears to be repentant, showing some remorse. What they judge to be repentance results in their decision regardless of the type of wrong, if they are doing it by the book.

  It appears the heart of the problem is at least two fold.
  1 As JT explains, the men assigned to the task are not adequately trained.
  2 The system is focused on judgment and punishment rather than on LOVE AND TOLERANCE.

  This to me is more of the flaw in the system than the consistency issue you pointed out. If it appears that two people committed similar sins but one got a different judgment that is not really an indictment of a flawed system. The judges are focused on what they perceive to be the level of “repentance”.

  The issue to me is WHO APPOINTED US AS JUDGES. When God’s word says “Stop judging:” lest you be judged, I think it is best to listen to God rather than men. I would rather focus on LOVE, which believes all things and bears all things.
  I guess that’s why those of us here are EX elders.
  Jst2laws
• 

  Pork Chop

  I've been on a considerable number of JCs, only one resulted in disfellowshipping. The one was a multiple adulterer with a demonstrated history of lying. Generally speaking, the brothers leaned over backwards to find repentance. I know of several brothers that spent sleepless nights both before and after these cases and shed quite a few tears as well. Not to say that all cases are like the ones I've seen, Hillary Step is certainly right when he says it depends on where you are and who you get.
• 

  JT

  JUST2LAWS

  JR Brown wt spokesman made this comment about the elders

  this reveals their true feeling when the Sh!t hits the fan and these men appointed by god screw up

  "Both Brown and Moreno said that the elders, who volunteer and are essentially untrained clergy, might err in their application of a policy both believe puts protecting children first."

  Now ask any elder who has been to elderS school - when they leave do they feel like the Society vIEws them as UNTRAINED

  in fact the instructors pound into thier heads that they are FULLY QUALIFIED

  THEY make the elders sound like some volunteers at the local little league game
• 

  jst2laws

  JT,
  I agree. I remember Chuck Woody telling us we didn't need professionals to help our brothers and sisters: "you elders have everything the friends need, the Bible."
  The 1500 plus KM school attendees went home with newly inflated confidence that God had given them the key to all problems. Yet this counsel contradicted what was in print at the time. When a pioneer sister got so bizarre that the local authorities were after her for child abuse I wrote the Society informing then that we use to encourage her to stay on her medication but now you seen to be saying they don’t need “Professional help”. They eventually removed her as a pioneer but never even addressed the BAD ADVISE we got at the KM school.
  As you said: “in fact the instructors pound into thier heads that they are FULLY QUALIFIED”.
  The quote from JR Brown I remember was the society defense for poor handling of child molesters. If only the average elder knew how much he is out on his own.
  Jst2laws
• 

  DannyBear

  You know something, who really cares about all this sin, forgiveness, repentance, restoring, 'keeping the congregation clean'? I surely don't anymore, why anyone would maintain a morbid interest in the whole 'man-made' religious philosophy, proceedures, polices, and enforcement of the WTBS is really a folly, in every sense of the word.

  In fact, it sickens me to even try and recall all the malarky that goes on. It demonstrates to me, the insidiousness of JWdom. Even when we leave, the tentacles hang on. The cult beast just keep's eating away at us.

  Living life day by day, without the fear of man, without having to worry about all the truly silly rules of man, is absolute joy! I don't give a hoot about committee's, sin, disfellowshiping, seeking forgiveness from men, or any of the other million,, mind boggling guilt building mantra jw's love to revel in.

  Once you get past the Bible as some sort of wonder book, get past considering it as the end all of end all, on all matter's, you can take a breath of truly free air. Until you can shake all the fear of scripture/demons/prophets and the Devil himself, it appears that one can never really be free.

  Get rid of Paul and all his excuses, all his directives, get rid of any man or organization of men, that speak or write for god, and we may have a chance at real freedom of thought. Until then, when we leave Jwdom and join another religion, or take on another set of rules and dogma..WE REMAIN A SLAVE...

  Get rid of it all. If you know there is a God, seek him if you will. I have and will continue to do so, at my own pace. My one rule of thumb is 'no person living or dead, will ever tell me when, how, where, why, I should seek God.' In other words you will never find me sitting in any church or temple pew, looking for something that is not there. Because all that is there is man and his silly idea's of what he thinks God wants.

  I will confess to God if I choose. I will seek his comfort if I choose. Great God Almighty I think Iam finally FREE!

  Danny
  X religion class
• 

  TheOldHippie

  To Ginny:
  *******************************************************************
  This is a bit off topic, but I wonder if you or anyone else knows . . . How far in advance are The Watchtower and Awake! magazines written and printed? How much time do the guys at Brooklyn have to "stop the presses" if they change their mind on an issue and want to either edit or suppress an article?
  *******************************************************************
  The presses are stopped all the time, so to speak. I have a friend who is a translator, and he tells me right up to the moment the very last master copy is sent to the printers', corrections keep on coming in. Sentences are changed or removed or added, whole paragraphs etc. The QFR on praying for DF'd persons, was originally not in the magazine, there was another QFR which the translators found a bit "strange" as it contained much more "new light", but then, as the magazine was to be wired, along came this new QFR which was to substitute the other one.
  You can see the same for example in the Daniel book, where there are at least three different versions.
• 

  Sirona

  Thanks for asking this question ItsJustMe, I was interested in knowing former elders views.

  I hate the memory of being the subject of a JC. It was downright humiliating and now Im so angry about it. I was 19 years old, engaged to a man I truly loved, and we had 'protected' sex once. I was subjected to talking to 3 old men about every little detail of the event, (which I now realise wasnt sex at all! hardly any penetration, then we stopped because of guilt, previously I was a virgin so didnt know what sex was anyway). They tried to DF my fiance, who was absolutely crushed inside and more repentant than me! I persuaded him to appeal and he did, then we were both subjected to another appeal meeting, in which they didnt DF him and blamed HIM for not communicating properly about his repentance.

  I dont want to see any of them ever again.

  Sirona
• 

  Frenchy

  I served as an elder for many years and,of necessity, on many Judicial Cases. Like JT says, the great majority are unqualified to give even the most basic advice. A large portion are unqualified to even tell a publisher what the Society's position on a certain matter is and at least half are, at best, confused about the whole process.

  As has been stated, there is no consisitency as to how the instructions are followed, for one thing. There is a great inability on the part of many to not even be able to understand the wording of the instructions. I remember having to pause such meetings from time to time and remind one elder in particular that this was not the way to proceed and he would invariably say: "That's how we used to do it." This brother had a third grade education and had served as the PO of the congregation for a couple of years when there was no one else there to handle it. He had a good heart, however, and could be counted on to give the benefit of the doubt. He was patient and was quick to accept what the accused said on their behalf.

  I was totally unprepared to handle the first few cases that were thrust upon me when I was first appointed. In time I came to look at the process as a means of helping people more so than a process for punishing them. There were a couple of times, however, where procedure did not allow for mercy where I thought mercy should be shown. One was dealing with a friend of mine who was trying very hard to quit smoking but was not completely successful. He was honest enough to admit to doing something that there is no way any of us could have ever 'caught' him doing and for that, he was df'd. I remember what the CO told me as I spoke to him about the case. After I told him that the brother was sincerely trying to stop and needed more time, he said: "What if he were committing adultery, would you let him just taper off? Get rid of him!" And that was the instruction I got about my friend.

  He took it well when I told him we had no choice in the matter. He said that he understood and that he would continue working on his problem. He did and I was happy to have a part in his re-instatement. A few years later I had the unhappy task of conducting his funeral. I miss my friend.

  -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
• 

  Pathofthorns

  It appears the heart of the problem is at least two fold.
  1 As JT explains, the men assigned to the task are not adequately trained.
  2 The system is focused on judgment and punishment rather than on LOVE AND TOLERANCE.

  Nice comments J2L.

  Ginny, I suspect most of the disfellowshipped ones still believe "it's the truth", and the Society is aware of their hold on these ones. Barring 'apostates', I would almost consider most DFed ones practically Witnesses still from what I have seen.

  Many of these ones still offer passionately lame arguments in defense of the organization that is shunning them. Desperately trying to gather up all their scattered members in order to grow and survive, I believe the Society is trying to fast-track getting those who are kicked out back in, while at the same time increasing their stance against 'apostates' and active or inactive members with 'apostate leanings'.

  Path