Why do we get stumbled out of JW's because of imperfect people?

by reniaa 78 Replies latest jw friends

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  shopaholic

  I don't think people get stumbled out because of the people. I think the people are the main reason way most JWs stay in the org.

  Once you've determined that most (if not all) of what you believed your whole life is not true with respect to the teachings of JW, its very difficult to live a life of pretending. You basically have nothing to hold on to but the relationships that you built with other JWs. Once these relationships have detoriated, whats the point in staying? To serve God, to apply bible principles? You don't need a religion to do that.
• 

  TD

  Reniaa,

  It's not hard to understand and it has nothing whatsoever to do with "imperfection."

  You mentioned Moses. Moses was an "imperfect" man; true, but when he spoke in the capacity of prophet was he ever mistaken? When he told Pharaoh that hail mixed with fire would fall unless the Israelites were released, did it happen? When he told Pharaoh that the first born of Egypt would die unless the Israelites were released did it happen?

  The JW organization today claims to be Jehovah's spirit directed organization, Jehovah's modern day prophet, Jehovah's channel of communication, Jehovah's earthly organization, Jehovah's watchman class, etc. Obedience in the form of doctrinal conformity is demanded as if real plenary inspiration was being offered. Disagreement with the JW parent organization is handled and viewed the same as if it were disagreement with God.

  Yet the JW organization is not willing to accept the responsibililty that goes with this level of authority and has a 100% failure rate when it comes to prophetic speculation.

  They can't have it both ways. You can't have it both ways.

  Imperfection is no excuse once you've claimed a special position with God
• 

  Finally-Free

  I don't want to bring the paedophile thing into this debate

  That's a typical, convenient JW reaction when confronted with the indefensible. I'm well aware that child molestation is a problem everywhere, not just among JWs. I was a victim myself, before getting involved with JWs. What is indefensible is the watchtower organization policy of legally defending the molesters while shunning the victim. It's a matter of public record. I even have video footage of Clive Thomas, spokesman of the Canadian Bethel, assassinating the character of an abuse victim on the evening news with heresay that had nothing to do with the case that was before the courts.

  When the JWs first came to my home in the 1970s they elevated themselves above other religions, whom they said were controlled by Satan. They claimed they alone had God's approval. They claimed that murder, fornication, child abuse, etc. did not happen among them as much as elsewhere, and that if it did it was dealt with appropriately. That was a lie. They claimed the UN was a "counterfeit of God's kingdom" and a tool of Satan, yet they had no qualms about joining as an NGO secretly. Then come all their doctrinal faults, which are too numerous for me to detail because I'm currently at work.

  They claim to have "love among themselves" yet my 20 years with them showed them to be the most gossiping, backbiting, lying, theiving, hateful people I've ever known. No where else have I seen people turn on their own family and friends with such glee.

  Jesus said, "By their fruits you will know them". I've seen the Watchtower's fruit, and it is rancid.

  W
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  shopaholic

  Imperfection is no excuse once you've claimed a special position with God

  Exactly. I could not have said it better.
• 

  Layla33

  Well I can only speak for myself, and I think everyone has done a brilliant job already.

  I was not stumbled because of imperfect people, I was disgusted, disenchanted, no longer needed to be herded to understand God by a very imperfect infinitely destructive belief system. I have seen instances where women have been raped, beat by their husbands and "the society" pressured these women to stay. I have known of child abusers, who were forced into the family, women treated like secondary citizens. Something I don't like to discuss much, but when I was 8 I lost my brother to the refusal of a blood tranfusion. It took me years to come to terms with that, and you know what, my family refused to for many many years.

  And the bible is far from perfect, sorry to challenge you, but the bible has been rewritten over 300 years, through the hands of people with different ideologies. It's a great book - a book of stories, but if anyone doesn't realize that a lot of those things are not true, did not happen exactly as was written, that the so-called instances of people's lives, even Jesus was written many years after the fact, by people who didn't even know the person they were writing about.

  Religion is man trying to interpret God, but God is not a religion. I am wagering that even the most bonifide "religion" has about 2% of what the spiritual realm (if you believe in that type of thing) correct, the rest of it is all theology, doctrine, cultural ideas that are meshed with a belief system. I am free, I don't need that.

  I don't need a group of men that ordained themselves to be the directors of my life, who I talk to and what I should believe. No one needs to be part of that "organization" in order to be happy or fulfilled in their lives, in fact, there are a lot of unhappy, unfree, controlled miserable people in the JW religion, so again, everyone walks their path, but the one I am walking, I am absolutely convinced is the best one for me and I am very happy about it.
• 

  reniaa

  Imperfection is no excuse once you've claimed a special position with God

  I can't agree with this as if this was the case why did the jews need jesus to come and sort them out? and re-teach them?

  there is no organisation that God used in the bible that didn't suffer from the imperfection of it's leaders because they were men, there was no point to jesus coming if organisations couldn't be currupted by the teachings of men?

  Some on here then say they follow jesus, not an organisation! but then if that is all we need to have why do we have Acts, Romans onwards and all the teachings of paul on being followers in an organisation following jesus if we alone could follow him without need of this?

  100% failure rate hmmm as the only real thing they predict is the coming of armegeddon and stuff related to that so if they get it right or wrong the whole world would eventually know.

  The way I see it all Christian faiths have to be lumped together inc JW's any that say they are following the bible and have to be judge as a group as all have had access to jesus's teachings and have to be responsible for how they translate those teachings, age of organisation or length of time with the organisation is irrelevant as they all use the same source and therefore can be judge from that and also all have imperfect leaders translating that source so for me the question is currently which Christian faith is closest to what jesus's teaches? or alternatively should i set up my own lol
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  AK - Jeff

  there is no organisation that God used in the bible that didn't suffer from the imperfection of it's leaders because they were men, there was no point to jesus coming if organisations couldn't be currupted by the teachings of men?

  I agree with your first 10 words above, of course.

  Jeff
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  Open mind

  *stole this bit from "Confession" the other day*

  I invite you to read something written by Tom Cabeen, former Watchtower Press Room overseer who, like me and so many others, was stunned to realize "The Truth" wasn't. "Does God Really Work Through an Organization?"

  http://www.brci.org/Attachments/Org.pdf

  I'd really like to hear your opinion of this well thought out article.

  His perspective respects the Bible as God's word.

  OM
• 

  AK - Jeff

  I invite you to read something written by Tom Cabeen, former Watchtower Press Room overseer who, like me and so many others, was stunned to realize "The Truth" wasn't. "Does God Really Work Through an Organization?"

  Good suggestion OM.

  That little pdf changed my perspective on a concept that was deeply embedded for me, even for a while after leaving the Jw's. I still have it on my desk, and I have rec'd it often in the past. I have been in touch with Tom. He has now, in some ways ironically, attached himself to the Catholic faith, but not because he believes that God has selected them - his reasons are deeper than that, and it took me a while to understand his reasoning. He is a fine Christian man in my opinion, though his path is different than mine in many ways. That article is a good read for all former Jw's in my opinion - and would be even more suited to all active Jw believers who had the courage to read it.

  Jeff
• 

  Terry

  I think we miss the point!

  You don't turn your back on medicine when you discover a quack doctor, do you?

  No.

  But, you do turn your back on the Quack Doctor!

  You don't give up restaurants when you get food poisoning, do you?

  No, but you don't eat at the same restaurant that you got poisoned in either!

  You see?

  Specific things lead to specific actions and specific judgements.

  The rotten apple in the barrel is a metaphor.

  Who wants to eat the rotten apple? Nobody.

  Who wants to drink from a river where a horse is taking a dump upstream?

  Nobody.

  The history of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is a record, a testimony and an evidence of what the SUBSTANCE of their claim to TRUTH actually is (or isn't.)

  1.They speak in Jehovah's name and attribute to Almighty God the words they print in their books and magazines. They, in effect, put the credit or blame on God.

  2.When they send their members door to door to spread these words, messages, prophecies and Truths they make every person a party to the implied certainty of JEHOVAH'S direction.

  3.When their words of prediction and prophecy prove to be in error what happens? They don't own up. The men at the top blame the members. In other words, they demonstrate irresponsible consciences.

  4.The rule of thumb in Scripture is that a prophet whose words prove false IS NOT TO BE LISTENED TO OR FEARED. Plain and simple.

  5. "God's words, not ours." This is damning. Jesus did not come in 1848. The Geat Pyramid did not contain passages of prophetic length. The "ancient worthies" did not ressurect and live in a San Diego mansion in 1925. (The Watchtower President did!) Armageddon did not come in 1975. All official pronouncements represented as THE TRUTH from Jehovah, the editor in chief of the Watchtower magazine.

  Is Jehovah honored by false reprsentation?

  Do people who spread false prophecy door to door honor Jehovah?

  How do you separate a practice of medicine from the quack doctors who run this hospital?

  Why would you?

  Ignore the leeches and the bleeding treatments? I think not!

  You get the hell out of there before your kids die from equally lunatic policies on blood!

  You get the hell out of there before your family gets pulled down into a bog of medieval thinking and one of your loved ones gets shunned and you are ordered not to even pray for them or extend Christian mercy!

  HOW MUCH EVIDENCE do you need to see the error of your premise??

  When you lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas.

  Do you like scratching?

  THE GOVERNING BODY is taking a dump upstream. Why would you drink the so-called "waters of life" DOWNSTREAM of them?

  Get up and get your butt away from them and stop calling the drink REFRESHING!