Why do we get stumbled out of JW's because of imperfect people?

by reniaa 78 Replies latest jw friends

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  WTWizard

  For starters, it was not imperfect people that made stupid mistakes that made me leave the cancer. It was consistent patterns of actions, all directed to keep me ever-celibate so I could join the Value Destroyer Training School, without asking me if I would mind (and without penalty if I did mind). This went on long enough so it was blatant that they were not mere mistakes.

  Additionally, I realized that the worst I could do was not to leave and get destroyed. The worst outcome would be for me to survive into the new Dark Ages. Ever celibate, always doing what I hated most, and no thinking allowed. To me, that was not my idea of paradise. And having to spend forever with those hounders that always wanted more out of me than myself plus kids did not appeal to me. Nor did spending it with those who separated me from the opposite sex, were stifling, or boring simply because they were Godcentric.

  For that reason, I decided that I would do my utmost to make sure I do not get into the new Dark Ages. That's when I blew off my first REJECT Jesus Party (getting a Ouija board instead). I also ordered a collection of books from a "secret society" that the Filthful and Disgraceful Slavebugger had warned against (and I do not regret it). And a computer. And joined apostate forums. And clicked onto apostate web sites (on purpose). And set up Christmas decorations. And have porn in my computer that I put there on purpose.
• 

  TD

  Reniaa,

  I can't agree with this as if this was the case why did the jews need jesus to come and sort them out? and re-teach them?

  Please Reniaa, You're temporizing here.

  In the Bible, the Jews were punished time after time after time after time and eventually cast aside for their waywardness. Do you really want to use the example of Israel in defense of the JW's?

  Where would this logically lead? Doesn't it make my point for me? (i.e That imperfection is no excuse.)

  there is no organisation that God used in the bible that didn't suffer from the imperfection of it's leaders because they were men, there was no point to jesus coming if organisations couldn't be currupted by the teachings of men?

  And again, God severely punished not only those leaders but in many cases, the rank and file members who went along with them as well. Are you sure you want to use this in defense of the JW's?

  Again, where would this logically lead except to the conclusion that one must distance themselves from the JW leadership when they are behaving badly?

  Some on here then say they follow jesus, not an organisation! but then if that is all we need to have why do we have Acts, Romans onwards and all the teachings of paul on being followers in an organisation following jesus if we alone could follow him without need of this?

  Specifics?

  Paul and his writings are one of the best refutations in the entire Bible against the JW notion of centralized organization.

  100% failure rate hmmm as the only real thing they predict is the coming of armegeddon and stuff related to that so if they get it right or wrong the whole world would eventually know.

  And they have a 100% failure rate on that topic. Isn’t this enough? Wouldn't it justify a little caution when it comes to predictions made today? Haven’t predictions regarding the coming of Armageddon and "stuff related to that" been very specific at times? Haven’t the JW’s applied hundreds of prophetic parallels and interpretations to these events, all under the auspices of divine guidance?

  These include but are not limited to:

  That 1914 would see the complete overthrow of all earthly governments and the establishment of God’s kingdom on earth.

  That 1914 would see the rapture

  That 1915 would see the complete overthrow of all earthly governments and the establishment of God’s kingdom on earth.

  That 1918 would see the complete overthrow of all earthly governments and the establishment of God’s kingdom on earth.

  That 1925 would see resurrection of the ancient worthies, the establishment of God’s kingdom on earth and the dawn of the millennium.

  That WWII would culminate in Armageddon.

  That those that witnessed the events of 1914 would live to see Armageddon

  That adults in 1935 would live to see the great tribulation

  The way I see it all Christian faiths have to be lumped together inc JW's any that say they are following the bible and have to be judge as a group as all have had access to jesus's teachings and have to be responsible for how they translate those teachings, age of organisation or length of time with the organisation is irrelevant as they all use the same source and therefore can be judge from that and also all have imperfect leaders translating that source so for me the question is currently which Christian faith is closest to what jesus's teaches? or alternatively should i set up my own lol

  Jehovah’s Witnesses are unlike most other Christian faiths in one important area and this has to do with how they are guided.

  There's two basic ways that information can be conveyed. Actively and Passively.

  For example, If I invited you over to my house for dinner, there's two basic ways I could get you there.

  1. I could ride with you in the car and actively tell you when to turn and how far to go. (Active guidance)

  2. I could draw you a map and let you figure it out. (Passive guidance)

  Most other Christian faiths only claim passive guidance from God via the Bible. In other words, the Bible is the map and they do the best they can to figure it out.

  Even those faiths that do claim active guidance from God like the Mormons and Catholics have the sense to reserve this alleged capacity only for special occasions.

  The JW’s make no such distinction. They claim that their unique understanding of the Bible is the product of divine direction. Everything they publish is published as the Truth without equivocation. None of it may be questioned. All of it is the product of divine guidance.

  You and I know that no imperfect person or group could ever live up to such a claim, but the JW leadership either does not realize it or enjoys the authority and prestige too much.
• 

  reniaa

  hi Open mind got my kids home so only had chance to do a quick read on it, :S which probably was a mistake, listening to someone bring up loads of organisations/families from the bible as he calls them and then tells me they weren't organisations even though they have leaders that make decisions for the people strong biblical structural direction and they are encouraged to group together for protection and council their own members judicially as well as defeat and come up against those not part of the organisation basically if felt like someone telling me it looks like cheese, tastes like cheese and would fool a mouse yet it isn't cheese :S

  Firstly he mentions pre-flood stuff which I felt was a bit naughty of him since biblical info on this was very sparce and we know they according to bible lived pro-longed lives and so Adam would have been around to teach them about jehovah as well as all speaking the same language, we do know from after the flood before babel that the people were inclined to congregate together anyway.

  He misses out an important part of OT for me which was when moses father-in-law came to him seeing that moses took a lot on himself judging the people and he suggested putting older men over each tribe to rule them and judge them can't think of the scripture atm.

  That the jews were a highly organised group is true upto modern times and he skips over this neatly by refering to jews as tribal groups only.

  He then talks of paul making congregation in different town which felt like he was blowing his own arguement out of the water because on one side he was saying paul had a direct line to God and then paul is making congregations if we didn't need them why would paul bother?

  His strongest arguement is saying Godly insight is given to the individual not to any organisation but I think he might be splitting hairs here because it's clear individuals functioning as part of the organisation usually as leader/prophet/overseer/elder role in many cases are given insight aka moses, Samuel, Daniel, hezekiah, John, Paul etc.

  Like i said i only speed read it so if i'm wrong in my conclusions feel free to correct me?
• 

  reniaa

  hi wtwizard I understand your point and it's a valid one as someone said earlier by there fruit you will know them and I guess I will be asking the question has Jw's heavily overburdened it's people more than any other Christian faith. Enforced celebacy is harsh as a JW from birth I understand to a certain degree though probs not as fully as i gopt married at 19 but being stuck in an unhappy childless marriage for 8 years was one reason I left Jw's, I wanted a new partner and kids and knew i would never have a reason to divorce him while I stayed in the faith, there was other issues but basically in the last 10 years I enjoyed having my cake and eating it if you look at my first topic i posted on here it describes some of it. But and this is only me personally speaking now... I have suffered from having my cake and eating it, and am currently a single mum with 3 kids and have recently wondered the wisdom allowing myself to jump fence and taste the grass on the other side. Still from some on here I know they have had opposite experience and have had positive experiences finding new partners and a fulfilling life, lol I have to ask myself would i even be thinking of going back if I'd have been happy since leaving?

  Still I still question if the types of things you question in Jw's wouldn't also be found in any intense fundamental religion, I have found this in the workplace certainly were the boss is infallible and your sacked without reference if found wanting.
• 

  oompa

  Reniaa: I think i have to accept as a starting line that what the bible teaches is correct inc all the end of time prophecies.

  Your kidding me, right? Like you have really done enough critical manuscript research to verify the bible is legit, and teaches correct things??? Wow, you have way more time and patience that ordinary bear...............oompa
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  reniaa

  Hi TD

  Why wouldn't i want to be compared with jews israelites etc? What makes me superior to them, they are offspring of adam so am I, if we are so much better now the world wouldn't have issues still? Some of those I admire most biblical King David etc had massive failings nothing i see nowadays makes me think humanity wise we have progressed that much for example iraq and other wars.
• 

  yknot

  I think that might be the initial signal that 'spiritual paradise' is a scam.

  A lot of us are born or raised within the organization. Our entire understanding about the Bible is/was manipulated by the WTS. Much of the NT is considered for the 'anointed' only and with the misapplication of Matt. 24:45 the masses are encouraged to be obedient sheeple to this FDS priestly class.

  For me personally I just assumed that the people around me were spiritually weak, lacked discernment and had a poorly Bible trained conscience. (and that was the assumption made when I was 7yrs old....I was deeply brainwashed with JW jargon)

  My ultimate demise was seeing the actions done on behalf of riches over righteousness many times over. The clear picture that the "Slave" was slaving for two masters and clearly preferring the benefits of wealth than that of stored treasures in heaven. Even then though I was still indoctrinated to be patient and not 'run ahead" continuing to 'wait on Jehovah'. I guess the events of last year hit my limit. After finding this site it was a short time before I made clear plans to fade. I was no longer isolated in my concerns, it wasn't in my head nor was I thinking 'crazy thoughts' as many Elders had said to me in the past.

  It's a cult.......they aren't designed to be easily left.
• 

  TD

  Reniaa,

  Why wouldn't i want to be compared with jews israelites etc? What makes me superior to them, they are offspring of adam so am I, if we are so much better now the world wouldn't have issues still? Some of those I admire most biblical King David etc had massive failings nothing i see nowadays makes me think humanity wise we have progressed that much for example iraq and other wars.

  The responsibilities of the individual JW in relationnship to the JW leadership in light of its (obvious) imperfections is the issue at hand.

  You have asked why imperfections would be an issue. You brought up the nation of Israel as an example. I've pointed out that with Israel God has punished the rank and file along with the leadership in the past. (Repeatedly) Imperfection is no excuse once one has claimed a special relationship with God.

  Your comment above isn't even tangentially related. (Not trying to be mean.)

  I realize you have young children, you're busy and likely don't have a lot of quiet time. Perhpas you would like to pursue this conversation when you have some time to think?
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  yknot

  Here is another thought

  'Imperfect men' is used as a biblical smoke screen by the FDS and it's service class but is not open to the non-positioned R&F

  So to not give allowance is going against "God's sole channel".........

  Everyone has a limit to viewing or enduring abuse before they snap.

  Once snapped things start to unravel....

  But of course I am limited to a born-in point of view....
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  Hope4Others

  I'm talking about people on here who say they left because of imperfect hypocritical actions of others not the teachings which is a different issue

  Sorry its never just about the people, it is a combination of events. The people on the other hand expect more from you than they would

  there own mother!

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  Hope4others