Just got done with a 3 hr. argument with my family. The essence of the “conversation” was that since I’m not going to the meetings, aka: in the “organization”, I’m not a good person. They said I’m an independent thinker and straddling the line towards apostasy. I shouldn’t think for myself and Satan has a hold on me. God has an organization, the Watchtower”, he directs them through his “Discrete Slave” and I should agree with everything they say, even it they later change some ideas, it’s just God’s way of adjusting his flock. They cried, said they loved me and said they did not want to see me die. I tried to reason with them, tried to make some good points, but I think everything I said came out wrong. The following are some points I touched upon. The first bullet point is mine, the second is my family's response:
· Children baptized at a young age (7,8,9 years old) they are not old enough or mature enough to comprehend what they are doing.
o If Jehovah did not approve of this, the Slave would have changed this a long time ago. They are old enough to comprehend what they are doing (marriage is completely different, it does not apply here). Gave examples of the children that became kings in biblical times. These kids were Jehovah approved; the same principle applies today.
· Reporting of hours – should we not preach because it comes from the heart, not because we want to meet the minimum hours?
o The apostles came back and reported their experiences and the amount of days they spent with the congregations. That is why we should report hours today.
· We should use our heads, use reason and logic and not agree with everything the “Slave” says.
o That sounds like and apostate thought. Even if the “Slave” is misguided, Jehovah will clear things up in his own time.
§ Why do we need to belong to an organization to serve God?
o Jehovah has always had an organization. He always works through his organization. If I’m not in the organization there is no way I can please or worship God. They are not perfect but God is using them today. I should submit to God’s will and be humble, independent thoughts will lead me to death; I am fulfilling Satan’s wishes.
§ The “Slave is not infallible” they have said it themselves; they are not inspired by God.
o So now I am smarter than the Slave, Satan thought he was smarter than God. This is God’s instrument and he adjusts their thinking when things are wrong in his due time. Even if we don’t comprehend things, we should follow their direction because sooner or later God will readjust their thinking and they will let us know. I must not run ahead of God’s chariot. I must be humble and patient.
§ The heavenly hope keeps changing. First it was done in 1935, and then it was open to fill the ones that were unfaithful, now it is open again.
o It was obviously not finished. Jehovah is readjusting our thinking and knowledge. We don’t judge or mistrust those who claim to be of the anointed, even before the current information came out, if an individual began to declare he or she was not anointed, it was between God and the individual, the organization never judged them.
I could go on, but I won’t. It just seemed that for every good point I made (or so I thought) it came down to, you are not humble, you think you are smarter; you have independent thoughts just like Satan. You cannot worship God if you are not a Witness. The organization is not perfect and I will see a lot of things that go wrong, but the Israelites did a lot of bad things, and that did not mean that they were not his organization. Jehovah uses imperfect people and an imperfect organization to do his will, it makes things harder but he is patient with us and he keeps on readjusting our thinking. Lastly, I’m making my family suffer and basically I suck as a person.
I feel like I didn’t score any points. By the way, I faded and I still speak with my family, but after tonight I think a lot of things are going to change. They knew I was out but they did not know what I thought. They know now, so I think they will cut all contact with me. There are two elders in my family and one ministerial servant, 5 of them are pioneers and two of them are being trained as Circuit Overseers (husband and wife team). My arguments did not make a single dent in their thinking. Once they cut me off, I will be all alone in the world.
I feel sad, depressed and a bit scared of the future without my family. Still, what a wonderful provision Jehovah has made! Kick your family to the curb if they don’t agree with everything his “Slave” says. The good thing is, since the big A is coming really soon, God will destroy me and I won’t have to worry about stuff like this anymore. Well, c’est la vie. Thanks for letting me rant.
I went head to head with my family and I lost
by noontide 37 Replies latest jw friends
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noontide
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JoyNichols
"Winning" is not the point. Being true to yourself is the point. And that actually is winning. You did not lose. They have lost - themselves to a cult. You are free to build new relationships, new family, new knowledge. Fly!
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Gopher
Well, it sounds like both you and the family had their say. They feel they lost, in the sense of losing you to "the world".
It's hard enough to convince one loyal JW of anything, much less a whole group. You were up against impossible odds. You lost nothing, you were true to yourself.
Except now you'll have the opportunity to fill your life with people who accept you for the good person you are, and not whether you're in line with a bunch of old guys at some religious headquarters somewhere.
Anyway, we're here to support you in the process. It's good to have a 24/7 support site like this!!
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Switch
Your experience sounds much like a conversation I had with my mom a couple weeks ago. We covered much of the same points and she always had the same defensive answers. Every week they are being warned in some form about apostate thinking and they chalk any independent thinking up to Satan. You certainly can't question the elders or GB, though imperfect, they are doing the best they can. (yeah, right).
My mom reminded me that I made a vow to Jehovah and I'd be breaking that if I didn't listen to the organization. (The org. and Jehovah are inseparable to her too). I firmly told her that I wasn't leaving Jehovah but I'm doing research and I don't believe it's the Truth because I'm finding lies. She grumbled and didn't have answers for that, but she said she's very sure it's the Truth.
So my goal now is to compile whatever misquotes and lies from the WT publications that I can find over the next couple months. I think the kicker for a lot of witnesses would be to see them for themselves in black and white. I'm not going to tackle deep doctrinal issues, though I will share some of the brilliant thinking of Russell and Rutherford. I also won't push the child abuse, U.N. scandals, etc. much cuz I think that'd immediately be dismissed as unreliable or some sort of overblown reporting.
I don't know even then if it will open the minds of my mom or friends, but I'm hoping to at least make them see why I've made the decision to leave and it's not because I'm a lazy or bad person. But it IS our lives we're talking about. Assuming it's coming, could I face God on Judgment Day and tell him I stayed and supported this religion not because I thought it was his true organization but simply because all my friends and family liked it?!
I wish everyone the best in their endeavors. Keep us posted.
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Anti-Christ
I feel sad, depressed and a bit scared of the future without my family. Still, what a wonderful provision Jehovah has made! Kick your family to the curb if they don’t agree with everything his “Slave” says. The good thing is, since the big A is coming really soon, God will destroy me and I won’t have to worry about stuff like this anymore. Well, c’est la vie. Thanks for letting me rant.
We all know that feeling. Don't worry things do get better the more we are able to deprogram our self from all that mind control and when we find people who love us and appreciate us they way we are.
Like most have said already, it's not about loosing a conversation but being true to one self. The ones that are still in are "captive of a concept" ( I have not read the book yet) all the arguments that they us is based on the belief that the WT is god's organisation. I like to use the argument that all of god's earthly org. in the bible ended up turning against him in one way or the other. The ones that notice it were persecuted by the rest. Jesus warned is followers to guard against becoming like the Pharisees, so many rules that the forget the most important, love and mercy.
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Jim_TX
Don't beat yourself up too much. It sounds like you were there speaking to a group of JWs. You were out-numbered.
Just a question (I've been out for many years). Don't the JWs teach/preach - Make sure of all things - hold fast to what is fine? (Wasn't that the name of one of their books?)
So... aren't you supposed to think and research the teachings of the JWs? This cannot possibly be considered 'independent' thinking when one is directed to do it by the very organization that condemns it - if someone does it?
So... aren't THEY (your family) the ones who are on the hot seat (as it were) to do research?
Anyway... like I said - you were out-numbered. There is no way you could've 'won' any arguments with those odds.
Regards,
Jim TX -
oompa
noontide: · Children baptized at a young age (7,8,9 years old) they are not old enough or mature enough to comprehend what they are doing.
o If Jehovah did not approve of this, the Slave would have changed this a long time ago. They are old enough to comprehend what they are doing (marriage is completely different, it does not apply here). Gave examples of the children that became kings in biblical times. These kids were Jehovah approved; the same principle applies today.
· Reporting of hours – should we not preach because it comes from the heart, not because we want to meet the minimum hours?
o The apostles came back and reported their experiences and the amount of days they spent with the congregations. That is why we should report hours today.Yeah going up against a pack that that is tough, but just maybe they will reflect on some of what you said and it could have an effect....you never know. They certainly lose on the comments above though. A year or so ago the WT study article even metioned that children were not baptized in the first century. There is also no mention of kids getting baptized in the Bible....and they use that argument enough....and you can take that age up to at least 18....teens only have a couple of things on their mind and it aint lifelong devotion to God.
The apostles reporting experiences thing can be done in the hall too, but was not required by Jesus, and what does days with a congregation have to do with the public ministry? Geeze you were up agains some hard core, UNREASONABLE people.....I just wish you had said you had to stop because you did not want to "cast your pearls before swine".....oompa
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AuldSoul
(((noontide))),
That just sickens me. No one should have to endure that sort of demeaning talk from their family.
The apostles came back and reported their experiences and the amount of days they spent with the congregations. That is why we should report hours today.
They did NOT fill out slips of paper confidentially to be catalogued and compiled by accountants. They publicly talked about their activity and experiences, that is vastly different from what the organization requires today.
Jehovah has always had an organization. He always works through his organization.
This is the standard line. Ask them who God's organization was in 800 AD, 1100 AD, and 1300 AD. Watch the backpedaling begin.
So now I am smarter than the Slave, Satan thought he was smarter than God.
You mean they AGREED that they think the Slave is God? Wow! I don't think I could have let that one pass by. But, are they saying the Slave is smarter than YOU? The Slave has never claimed to be smarter than you, so why should youcredit their insights with being any better or worse than your own? They have never proved they have God's backing, have they?
Once they cut me off, I will be all alone in the world.
Only for so long as you continue to believe the world is as they say it is. As soon as you open up to it, it will open up to you and you will find that you are FAR from alone in the world.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul -
sacolton
The hard-line Jehovah's Witness can only be illustrated like this ...
They all wear horse-blinders. You can try to show them factual evidence of the WTBTS not being "God's Organization" and they will refuse to acknowledge it. It is not unlike a child who sticks their fingers in their ears and says, "la la la la not listening not listening la la la la" ... so, it really makes you wonder if Jehovah's Witnesses are really interested in the TRUTH at all. I don't think it has anything to do with "truth" and everything to do with wanting to belong to something and to have an identity. How can they expect to know the truth about anything when they will never research outside the organization? Most have no motivation to investigate. Call it lazy. Most will only listen to what the Governing Body tell them. Call it brain-washed ... but they aren't interested in knowing the truth.
Remember the story how Jehovah made the heart of the Pharoah unchangeable, so that he can be made an example of? Well, it is no different with most Jehovah's Witnesses ... God has made them blind to the truth.
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momzcrazy
I feel like I didn’t score any points.
They would be bad Witnesses if they let you feel as if you did. The point is that you got to have your say. You were honest with them and yourself. So you actually WON!
momz
