Does God Really Want to Save Everyone?"

JosephAlward

A striking difference of opinion about God’s attitude seems to have existed between the author of 1 Timothy and the author of 2 Thessalonians. One thinks that God “wants all men to be saved,” but the other speaks of God deliberately deluding people in order to condemn them. Both pictures of God cannot be true, so there is a clear contradiction. The evidence is given below:

1 I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone-- 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:1-4)

Contrast this with

11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness. (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12)

How could an all-powerful God who "wants ALL men to be saved" not have the power to cause these men to see the truth, rather than "believe the lie"? The answer is, He did have the power, but he chose not to exercise it, and therefore he must not have wanted to save these men. This contradicts what is said in 1 Timothy.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

Satanus

Bro Joe

Good points. In fact a while ago i posted 100 passages that indicate that all would be saved, thus universalism. Then of course, there the opposing scriptures, i'm not sure how many, that declare that the majority of mankind are perished.

SS

Moxy

i asked this question as an aside in another thread and bring it up again:

WT exegesis of both NT and OT makes frequent use of a kind of causative vs passive argument, ie in a situation like this where god deludes(active voice) someone, it really means allows to be deluded (passive voice.) while this raises deeper questions like, can a ultimate First Cause really be spoken of as doing anything in the passive sense, ill limit my question to one of textual exegesis. being relatively unfamiliar with exegetical works outside the WT, id like to know if this is a very common line of reasoning and whether its simply a matter of ad hoc justification or whether it has any basis in greek or hebrew literary analysis.
thx
mox

Farkel

: How could an all-powerful God who "wants ALL men to be saved" not have the power to cause these men to see the truth, rather than "believe the lie"?

A better question would be, "Why would an all-powerful God allow all of that bullshit to be written in the first place?"

Farkel

"When in doubt, duck!"

JosephAlward

Moxy,

I have no expertise whatsoever in Hebrew, so I cannot present my own linguistic argument; however, I have no reason to suppose the men who translated the Hebrew into the Greek septuagint were wrong in choosing the active voice. In any case, what matters for this argument is whether God could have saved the wicked. The answer must be, of course, He could have, since he is allegedly all-powerful (recall Mark 10:27: "with God all things are possible.") Irrespective of whether one wishes to imagine the active, or the passive voice is used, the effect is the same as for the bystander on the shore who assumes a passive role and lets someone drown whom he effortless could have saved. We would say that the bystander must not have wanted to save the drowning victim. So it is with the god described in 2 Thessalonians: he effortlessly could have saved the wicked men, but evidently did not want to. This is contradiction to 1 Timothy, which says that God wants all men to be saved.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

zipit

Yes, "God Really Want[s] to Save Everyone."
Yet, God will not violate anyones free moral agency.
Salvation is available to all, as God is not partial.
"This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:3&4)
Next we note that God can outwit anyone especially those "who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
(2 Thessalonians 2:12)
There is no contradiction as you put it. The choice is yours.
God will help you on the road to salvation or he will help you meet destruction. I'm sure you have heard of self-destructive behavour.
Regards, zipit

JosephAlward

Zipit,

You're trying to add words to these verses that are not there. The writer didn't say, "God wants salvation to be available to all men." If there is an all-knowing god, and if he did, indeed, only wish that salvation be "available," he would have known that the words in 1 Timothy, "God wants all men to be saved," would be misleading and imprecise. In fact, according to 2 Thessalonians, God couldn't possibly really want ALL men to be saved since he deliberately gives man the instrument--free will--by which some will NOT be saved.

Thus, it is the imprecision and misleading nature of the verse in 1 Timothy which should be a sign to any rational person that an all-understanding, all-knowing, all-powerful god did NOT guide the writing of this verse. A REAL god would have known enough to have the writer say, "God wants salvation to be available to all men" in order for his words to be consistent with those in 2 Thessalonians, in which wicked men choose not to be saved.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

Bang

Joseph,
The powerful delusion is for their good, to stand condemned, and thereby learn to hate the sin. How can you present this as a contradiction if you don't yet know what the delusion is?

Bang

JosephAlward

2 Thessalonians shows that God didn't speak to the wicked directly and put into their hearts the love of God that was necessary to be saved. Instead, God enabled them to believe a lie. God had the power to save these men, but he didn't. That directly contradicts what the author of 1 Timothy said: "God WANTS to save all men." If the 1 Timothy author was correct, then the god described in 2 Thessalonians wouldn't have let the wicked men believe a lie, because such an act is the opposite of what you'd expect from a god who WANTS the men to be saved. Thus, either 1 Timothy is wrong, or 2 Thessalonians is wrong, or both are wrong. Either way, the Bible is in error.

We've said all on this subject that needs to be said, I think.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

Bang

Joseph writes:
< We've said all on this subject that needs to be said, I think.>

Bang responds:
I don't think so.
You don't seem to understand that God has allowed them to believe what they will, as this medicine is to their benefit. He wants them to be saved, i.e. from their own wickedness, not saved as in 'deluded about who they are while resting in comfort'.

Bang

Does God Really Want to Save Everyone?"

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