Does God Really Want to Save Everyone?"

by JosephAlward 20 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    Bang,

    You are the one who doesn't understand the argument, not I. Here it is, one more time:

    1. The all-powerful God has the power to make any man believe the "truth," to love God, and thus save that man.

    2. Thus, if God allows some men to go unsaved, it must be true that God did not choose to use his power to save that man.

    There's no problem here, so far, no contradiction. However, after we read in 1 Timothy 2:3-4 that "God wants all men to be saved," we have an obvious contradiction.

    Would it make sense to speak of a man standing on the shore of a lake who effortlessly could save a drowning person, and who wants the person to be saved, but who stands by and lets it happen?

    I think you're being too defensive about this and you're concentrating too much on defending your god; you need to focus instead on the author of 1 Timothy, who was careless in his use of words. All you have to do to defend yourself and your god is say that the author meant to say, "God wants man to learn to love God the way God wants to be loved, and thus to be saved, without God having to do all of the teaching and the saving himself."

    The 1 Timothy author's verse was clumsily composed, and therefore the author wasn't inspired by God. That's the only point I've ever wanted to make. Unless you're operating at the idiot-fundamentalist level of mindless acceptance of the notion that every word in the Bible came from God--and I don't think you are--then you should have no trouble accepting that the author was not inspired and that he could have better communicated his important message to the readers.

    I hope we're done with this.

    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

    * http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

  • Bang
    Bang

    Joseph writes:

    < Would it make sense to speak of a man standing on the shore of a lake who effortlessly could save a drowning person, and who wants the person to be saved, but who stands by and lets it happen? >

    Yes. If a person was always recklessly doing things that caused them to get into drowning difficulty. You might let them swallow water, experience drowning and become unconscious, later to revive them. They'd think twice about drowning next time. Even so, some people are simple determined to drown, and it's a bit upsetting that. But He's able to bring them back to life, they just don't know it, and why tell them that and cause an even more hardened attitude?

    Bang

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Bang; Why don't you admit you WANT to believe in god, even though there are many contradictions and a BIG lack of proof for the theory of god? Your cheerful attempts to fit a square peg in a round hole seem to indicate this.

    You justify god's lack of action in the drowning scenario outlined by JosephAlward by saying;

    Yes. If a person was always recklessly doing things that caused them to get into drowning difficulty. You might let them swallow water, experience drowning and become unconscious, later to revive them. They'd think twice about drowning next time. Even so, some people are simple determined to drown, and it's a bit upsetting that. But He's able to bring them back to life, they just don't know it, and why tell them that and cause an even more hardened attitude?
    Look, I don't know about you, but if the first time I did something that bugged god (or to use the illusration, the first time I did something reckless that meant I was drowning), god let me know, in a clear and objectively verifiable fashion (Moses got a burning bush, why can't I? In terms of the illustartion, it would be being plucked from the water by no hands and deposited on dry land, or maybe, walking on water), well, I wouldn't do it again. Being an atheist when you've just had god prove it existed AND ask you not to do that again is not a realistic option.

    Your god seems to be a trick player, and very human. How sad. I don't believe in god, as there is more evidence for the lack of god than for god. But if there was a god, then I like to feel that it would be w o n d e r f u l.

    Instead, you have to make up reasons why god doesn't tap us all on the shoulder, look us in the eyes, and let us know that it is true.

    If there was a god who cared, it would. The absence of such proof is an indication that god is as you see him (a trickster, and very human), or that god doesn't care, or, most likely, that god is just a nice idea, like non-fattening chocolate.

    People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...

  • Bang
    Bang

    Abaddon
    < the first time I did something that bugged god, god let me know, in a clear and objectively verifiable fashion >

    As He does.
    But what if you continually insisted, and you made it your way?
    What would be effective then?

    Bang

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    Bang,

    What would be "effective" is God simply pouring into the minds of these transgressors all of the knowledge necessary for them to love God the way he wants to be loved in order for them to be saved. He can do that, right?

    The fact that he apparently doesn't always do this shows that he doesn't want some men to be saved; if he did, he would save them in the manner I described above.

    I wouldn't have a problem with the Bible in this regard if it weren't for the contradictory teaching in 1 Timothy 2:3-4, which says that "God wants all men to be saved."

    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

    * http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Bang; You say "As He does"

    I say, well, bull I am afraid.

    You ignore "in a clear and objectively verifiable fashion".

    Either I have never done anything wrong, or god does not inform you of wrong doing in a clear and objectively verifiable fashion.

    Thus your arguement does not stand up.

    God could let us know he existed so there was no doubt. God could let us know when we displeased him, without a doubt, so we didn't do it again, or did so in full knowledge we were going against god.

    God does neither.

    Could it be it is not there?
    Or maybe that it does not care?
    Where is this god that you speak of?
    Sir, I think its absence odd
    In the book that says it's his
    It clearly states he loves and gives
    But where is this give and loving?
    All I see's a big fat nuthin'

    Babies die and cities burn
    According to the book
    It's a plan, a plan HURRAH!
    I say the plan's NO GOOD!
    For if god was really there
    Really loved and really cared
    We'd feel his arm around our shoulders
    And not have to look under boulders

    So we neither see nor feel -
    Although some say there's proof
    It's the sort that doesn't travel
    And often comes from minds unraveled
    And if Reader's Digest can find me
    Why not god? Oh please tell me!
    Is it that those who see
    Are better than little me?

    Well if that's so I say it sucks
    I was good when I first started
    If god had let me known what it wanted
    I'd not have grown up all distorted
    Thus if I doubt, sin, and die
    I say it's all god's fault
    One glass of water turned to wine
    Would prove it all for me just fine!

    People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...

  • zipit
    zipit

    You folks really like to go round and round. This me thinks proves my point. You can't outwit God. How can mere humans attribute to God evil. The error belongs with you Joseph in your ignorant questioning.
    Abaddon you do not beleive in god and that is your choice. God wants you all to be saved. Yes, but he will not force salvation on us and those who side with Satan in slandering him can and will be outwitted to there doom. "He catches the wise in their cunning" zipit

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    oh zipit, REALLY...

    SO dinosaur bones were put there to fool me?

    SO, God gave me this brain, and get's bummed out if I use it and discover there actually isn't any PROOF that god exists?

    Yeah, human brains can define what is or is not scientific proof. It ain't always right, but I think there would be one ickle tiny ickle expewiment that would prove god existed.

    But there isn't, and that's not ANY human's choice, let alone mine personally. If religious people can say they can't help but believe, well, so can I. I cannot help but believe in the lack of god. The only... entity... that chooses whether or not there is prrof of god, and that is... god.

    Yup, Biblic Research, to me, keeps on coming up with the same old answer; there is no god, the Bible is just another work of literature, one notable for the amount of blood soaked in its pages.

    Love and kisses

    People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...

  • Moxy
    Moxy

    god vs man
    religion vs science
    the bible vs higher criticism

    these are all artificially created divisions. there is nothing except man vs man.

    what one man thinks god is vs what another man thinks he is.
    where one man thinks he can find answers vs where another one thinks he can.
    what one man thinks the bible means vs what another one thinks it means.
    if you wish to argue the merits of the opinions of these different men, fine. please do. but you cant give one viewpoint automatic superiority because it is God's. it is still mans. it is just what man thinks god says. if god wants to argue the matter, he'll have to do it himself.

    mox

  • Bang
    Bang

    Abbadon,

    or god does not inform you of wrong doing in a clear and objectively verifiable fashion

    Oh, He lets me know. However, He's not going to force me, but He won't give up on me, He'll go the next step. Forcing someone is not how you make friends, but slaves.

    SO dinosaur bones were put there to fool me?
    No. What causes you to agree or disagree with God (and I don't mean the JW god) is your own desire / will and by reading a spiritual story book as an historical fact finding mission, you are simply putting Him to the test to see whether or not you should follow His Way, and then get something for it - the buying and selling business.
    However, if your real desire was to agree with Him, then putting Him to the test like that wouldn't be an issue - you wouldn't hear the story like that. Some Jews still don't eat pigs because that's the rule of slavery they heard and were willing to perform for reward, but if they really trusted Him and His advice, they simply wouldn't (eat) be like a pig, but rather "chew the cud" instead.

    If god had let me known what it wanted
    I'd not have grown up all distorted
    Thus if I doubt, sin, and die
    I say it's all god's fault
    He has told you. "I want kindness" and "do the same" as the Samaritan. It's plain and clear - and uncircumventable however hard people try. Look at the mess of 'knowledge' the WT society has developed into, in an extreme effort to seek Him in a book instead.

    If it is that you were taught about God by WT Bible study, I can understand why your estranged by it.
    Did you ever think much about the theives, the one saying "if your the Son of God, save us and yourself", and the other knowing that such an action wasn't actually salvation ?

    Bang

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