what is there to find "beyond" reason? (inspired by BurnTheShips)

by inkling 16 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  serotonin_wraith

  "This is complex, so it must have been designed!"

  Nope. It's complex, so it must be complex. We're limited creatures. Of course we couldn't design something as complex as the DNA code at the moment, but how arrogant to assume we're at the apex of natural thought in the universe! "Something must have designed it, because we, fantastic humans who basically just came down from the trees (in geological time), can't design it." No, it just means that there are natural things in this universe that are beyond our ability to copy. With complex DNA in particular, it developed naturally over time from simpler beginnings. It's not random either. We're looking at the code that survived. Most were so poorly 'designed' they didn't. We're looking at the up to date (more complex) version of it because we've arrived late on the scene. We never even knew it existed not too long ago.

  Look at the sun! An immense ball of light and heat travelling across the sky. Humans couldn't make one of those and move it, therefore Ra is pulling it along in his chariot! Some things don't change.

  "This impresses me, so it must have been designed!"

  Yes, how amazing that we have a planet that supports life and how wonderful stars look. Except, most of the universe does not support life (lucky roll of the dice would seem to be applicable to place our planet in the right place). Stars are 'created' when gases swirl closer together due to gravitational pull. They may look good, but they still have natural beginnings. If I thought they'd been designed, I'd be wondering why they were designed to blow up at the end of their lives and destroy surrounding planets, as our sun is going to.

  The great thing about Ellie's testimony is that there is good reason to believe something more happened than just her falling to the water- the 18 hours of static. The book lists other things too - her watch showing a later time for example.

  The only thing that suggests a god is human ignorance, as it always has been with every other god people have worshipped.
• 

  Satanus

  "If you seek me, you will find me", or to that effect. I did that, and he was nowhere to be found. As a jw, i did the 'god out there' thing. As a christian, i did the 'god out there' thing, and then switched to the 'god in there' method. While the internal method revealed a lot, still no bible god could i find. Christians will say that it's my fault, somehow. I either did not do it long enough, did it improperly, did it w a bad attitude, wasn't humble enough, etc, etc.
  
  The mystical method goes beyond reason and faith. Using meditational methods, it aims for a transcendence of the mind, toward a stillness in which one can simply observe what is.
  
  S
  
  Ps, i did the jesus thing, too.
• 

  Narkissos

  This is again the paradox of "revelation". That which knows through "reason" (or perception + language + imagination, or however you may construe the ordinary cognitive structure) cannot, by definition, find anything beyond "reason" (or perception, etc.).

  That's why "revelation talk" ultimately has to posit another self (in Christian tradition: the "Spirit," "inner man," the "spiritual man," the "child of God," the "seed of God," etc.) as the true recipient of revelation.

  But we speak God's wisdom, secret and hidden, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. None of the rulers of this age understood this; for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
  But, as it is written,
  "What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
  nor the human heart conceived,
  what God has prepared for those who love him"--
  these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For what human being knows what is truly human except the human spirit that is within? So also no one comprehends what is truly God's except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit that is from God, so that we may understand the gifts bestowed on us by God. And we speak of these things in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual things to those who are spiritual (or, in spiritual ways).
  Those who are unspiritual do not receive the gifts of God's Spirit, for they are foolishness to them, and they are unable to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. Those who are spiritual discern all things, and they are themselves subject to no one else's scrutiny.
  "For who has known the mind of the Lord
  so as to instruct him?"
  But we have the mind of Christ.

  But this is only moving the paradox one step further: how does my "rational self" come to know about it? Or, how does the supra-rational self come to rational language?

  No wonder about glossolalia...
• 

  jaguarbass

  I try and try the best I can come up with for myself is agnosticism.

  I find the bible is better used against God and for the atheist.

  Atheist say if we could get all the Christians to read the bible, there would be no more Christians.

  But, personally, for me, logic and reason supports an intelligent design.

  So I am left with a wash and in a difficult position.

  I agree with the atheist when they point out the errors and manly inspiration of the bible. I agree with the atheist pointing out that God is not loving, kind or caring.

  But studying anantomy and physiology, I lean toward design and can not slip down the evolution hole.

  I've read some Christian writers make good arguments for design and creation, but I part ways with them when they quote some scriptures.

  So all that leaves me agnostic.

  Atheism, and theism are mans ways of trying to explain the unknown.

  Atheism, seems a little more honest and willing to except the facts than theist.

  But I see them over all as a reglion, an organized system of beliefs.

  Atheist may pick up the wrong data, facts and go down the wrong road. But I do believe they are more interested in finding and dealing with facts.

  Theist, seem to have limited access to datta and facts and try to pound square pegs into round holes because they place blinders, govenors and harnesses on themselves.

  If ufo's and space men landed on the whitehouse lawn tomorrow and told us that we were their creation, invention, Atheist would be more inclined to believe them than theist.

  Theist would say they were demons, rebellious children of an unknow god.

  And the debate would rage on.
• 

  dinah

  Interesting......

  Reason asks me if Jesus were REAL, what is taking him so long? Reason tells me he ain't coming. There is no knight in shining armor to save us.

  Intelligent design, sure I can agree with that. But then again, if I have (and I do) children would I leave then totally alone and defenseless? Would I let a child go through that painful operation () when I could just wave a magic fuckin wand and fix it?

  God does not give a shit about us. He is masochistic, sadistic, and selfish. And I am made in HIS image. Well fuck me.
• 

  Rapunzel

  "The crux of the cosmological proof [for the existence of God] is the principle of sufficient reason, which claims that all facts are brought into existence by some cause. Why the universe? Becuase God. This is the realm of causes. Why God? Because the universe. This is the realm of reasons. But how do we know there is an order? How do we know reason is right? What makes us think that there is no such thing as the absolutely inexplicable? Why should contingency [the fact that the universe could have not existed] not have the last word - or the final silence? Because it would be absurd? So what? Why shouldn't the truth be absurd? Actually, it would be not so much absurd as mysterious, and for any finite spirit, the truth of the universe must indeed be mysterious." Andre Comte-Sponville, The Little Book of Atheist Spirituality [L'esprit de l'atheisme], p. 82.
• 

  zensim

  On the other hand, for those who want to know God (if he is there) he says, “You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you,” declares the Lord, “and will bring you back from captivity.”

  Interestingly, it was this earnest prayer (probably the most pure prayer I have ever prayed), desperately prayed for about a year, which led me away from the JW's. And, in 'knowing God' I have come to accept that not only do I not know God, I don't even believe in God - at least no God man has made in his image. The paradoxical feeling is, that if there is a God of which I cannot concieve, then my prayer has been answered in a way deemed worthy of me as a unique and precious manifestation of spirit.

  That quote from Contact captures the joy of having such an experience and the anguish of not being able to reach others from that experience.

  I do sometimes wonder though whether or not we in fact created all of this? That it is only our linear minds, limited by our concepts of time and space, that cannot fathom that we are ourselves 'god' and in fact created everything? What if we are intelligent design continually re-creating ourselves?