Shawn - I don't understand what you mean by trying to suggest I'm not being honest. I didn't realise you wanted to discuss the origins of polygamy I just thought you were posting random stuff from ant-LDS websites.
Couple of points to remember:
1/ I live in the UK so I go to bed and post at different times.
2/ Sometimes, just sometimes I go and live a real non-JWD posting life.
3/ The little symbol on my profile makes me a boy but my three scrummy baby girls make me a man.
4/ The elements of LDS history or dogma that everyone seems fascinated by comprise a relatively small portion of LDS history / thinking (a little like traducing christianity to silent women and Jesus mentioning he'd be back before everyone died.)
Why do you try and push us to become apologists no matter what the actual thread is about?- its like Q and Susan just posted let's let rip again.
Renegade Mormons - Abuse of Children- Broken Bones -Many Girls Pregnant
by flipper 86 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse
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Qcmbr
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Qcmbr
Oh and I just had to laugh at this.
"The only way a person can have a religion of no contradictions and logical difficulties such as this is to reject Joseph Smith as a prophet and his books, and accept the Bible as the sole authority for faith and practice. " -
flipper
O.K. I was working all night- now I'll reply to your various posts. Good comments everyone !
QCMBR- I agree our society definitely has a skewed view of sex as you put forth in great detail here . It definitely should be a loving union between partners of the opposite sex, or in some cases , same sex. That being said- pedophiles are sick in the head and the proliferation of adult sexual material in the media is not what makes them go after little girls . It is a " mental sickness " as you said which needs to be dealt with by professional psychologists, or psychiatrists , and as those options fail - law officials putting them in prison so young people can be protected ! We are dealing with felony child abuse - which in multiple offenses , in the United States gets pedophiles up to 50 years to life in prison. I would call that quite serious.
SAMMIE LEES WIFE- I agree with you. This is a huge issue which will not be solved on a discussion board like this - but it will be solved in the courts of Texas. I understand that you don't support the cults or their mistreatment of the children. I get that. The comparison with Jehovah's Witnesses spanking their children at a Kingdom Hall - as opposed to Mormon's breaking the arms and causing multiple fractures in many of their children is a stretch I believe . Not to mention the " sexual " issues of 60 percent of the Mormon girls from the compound being pregnant. So- it's not just a sexual issue , with the arm breaking physical abuse is happening too.
I think with the " fact " of the pregnant girls, and broken bones in multiple children - it is enough " evidence " to cause sufficient concern. And enough to warrant an investigation as well ! To not pursue it intrudes on the rights of the children to have a safe life . I do not think that intrudes on anybodies rights to make sure children live safely.
BONNIE & CLYDE- I too think that mainstream Mormons are just as cultish as offshoot Mormons .
5 GO- I agree with your comments. Children are taken from abusive parents all the time by child protection services in this country. Druggie parents, physically abusive parents, pedophile parents, abusive care providers providing care for children, and even adoptive parents , or foster parents providing a foster home for wayward children have been charged with abuse. It is not an uncommon problem in our society ! So my point is this - just because we have people hiding behind the name of a religion doing the same crimes that these other people I mention are doing - does that somehow let them off the hook to be responsible to their children ? Does it make it a situation where the authorities have to be more careful as to not offend sensibilities - but whereas if it was just Tom daycare provider, or Jane foster mother, a normal person would be strung up so fast for this their head spins ? ! I see and smell double standards here when it comes to getting justice for children in any religious group, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, and Scientologists ! In my opinion those religions are mainly concerned about how it will appear to the public to save their image in the media. Just my take. We see this " save my face and a$$" attitude all the time in big organizations. It's sick ! End of my rant .
IN RAINBOWS- I agree that if parents raise their children in a dangerous environment - there needs to be laws to protect them and ensure they can be rescued. Otherwise we would have " anarchy" in society with everyone raising children like tyrants with no rules to protect the young ones. Children have to be protected -
sammielee24
SAMMIE LEES WIFE- I agree with you. This is a huge issue which will not be solved on a discussion board like this - but it will be solved in the courts of Texas. I understand that you don't support the cults or their mistreatment of the children. I get that. The comparison with Jehovah's Witnesses spanking their children at a Kingdom Hall - as opposed to Mormon's breaking the arms and causing multiple fractures in many of their children is a stretch I believe . Not to mention the " sexual " issues of 60 percent of the Mormon girls from the compound being pregnant. So- it's not just a sexual issue , with the arm breaking physical abuse is happening too.
I think with the " fact " of the pregnant girls, and broken bones in multiple children - it is enough " evidence " to cause sufficient concern. And enough to warrant an investigation as well ! To not pursue it intrudes on the rights of the children to have a safe life . I do not think that intrudes on anybodies rights to make sure children live safely.But what facts are they? We have not been presented with any facts in this case and certainly zero arrests or charges. Zero. There are a lot of things we aren't hearing and a lot of innuendo we are. The fact is that yes, some kids had previous broken bones - some xrays showed that. How many of us had broken bones before the age of 12 that would show up? A lot of us. Are we linking every single accident has now with the word child abuse?
Fact is some girls are pregnant. What we still don't seem to have though is proof of their ages and further still - if they were already confident the girls were all underage, don't you think that the courts would have arrested or at least rounded up all the men inside? That's proof. The facts are that we have previous broken bones and pregnant girls. I realize that you believe that this evidence is enough to warrant an armed raid and forced eviction of children, but I don't believe that it had to be done that way. I'm not certain of the harm being done to all those kids by acting in that way provides a solid and successful means to an end. The allegations were of underage sex. That was the big one. The men then should have been removed - even if on suspicion but they weren't. Now we have morphed into the broken bone issue and that has come after a number of sources questioned why, if the sex abuse was the crime, the little boys were being taken. I saw those interviews as to the reason and sure enough within 2 weeks this charge comes up.
Every community, and this is a community, has some sort of abuse going on. I won't be surprised to hear solid charges of physical abuse at some point. I won't be at all surprised to hear of some girls 16 years old and pregnant. A lot, perhaps not all, but a lot of sexual and physical abuse survivors will tell you that just removing the abuser from the home provided a tremendous safety net and security. Reassurances of safety and support, gaining the trust of the kid, counselling them at the same time and keeping the abuser away - those are all things that most often help and don't create additional stress and turmoil on a little kid being ripped away from sisters and brothers, or family. You take a kid away and they lose touch with their own world and their own relative safety, often they internalize and are scared - if you instead remove the abuser, the child still has the ability to work through the issues but within their own sense of realism and safety.
Other facts are coming out daily - or what we assume to be fact. One is documentation. There have been birth certificates, social insurance numbers and marriage documents provided already for some of the people and the State has rejected all this evidence. Why - well it might be fraudulent. Men and women are leaving the compound to try and travel to where their kids are in order to see them. Is this right?
Barlow has been let go. All charges dropped. No reason why from the State that jumped on him. Now there are questions as I said earlier on the involvement Jessop had in all this - how much of a set up was involved and for what reason?
I don't think it has been handled well at all. It will be interesting to see how it plays since there is zero proof that all families were involved in any wrongdoing. Polygamy has nothing to do with this since a legal marriage happens one time and the other 'wives' as they are called, remain really nothing more than mistresses or baby mama's. If we are going to slam the prison door on those guys or women for entering a plural relationship, the law might be scooping up 25 million women and men who currently have any number of kids between them at the same time without any committment other than boyfriend/girlfriend or baby daddy or baby mama.
I think back to that case - what was it McMartin? - where it ended up costing millions of dollars, ruined reputations, lives destroyed and years of courts only to end in shambles. ...Let's hope this doesn't take 10 years to fix..........sammieswife.
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flipper
SAMMIES WIFE- I agree that getting the men out of the compound would have been a better way of handling this. But how would they do that without talking to the children first ? However- to do that the authorities would have had to have an arrest warrant , or enough proof to haul them in. How would they have the proof to do that without interviewing the children first ? There is always DNA testing as well which can be used to get to the truth. You can't put the carriage before the horse here. You make good points - but we will all just have to wait and see how this works out
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Warlock
I have come across some information that has caused me to change my mind on this situation.
I can no longer support the "rights" of this group, whether they are charged, or not.
Warlock
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flipper
WARLOCK- What information did you come across that changed your views? Please share with others , so they might have access to this information as well ! I welcome your opinions ! Peace out, Mr. Flipper
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Warlock
WARLOCK- What information did you come across that changed your views? Please share with others , so they might have access to this information as well ! I welcome your opinions ! Peace out, Mr. Flipper
Sorry flippy, I would love to, but I really can't.
Warlock
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flipper
WARLOCK- Well, I respect that. Hopefully others will find out things pertaining to this situation as well which will enlighten all of us on what is going on down in Texas. I'm not religious- but if I were a praying man, I'd be praying for those kids right now
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berylblue
I want the facts. I am not sympathetic with the FLDS lifestyle and If there is abuse, I want to see charges and punishment. I want the people inside to get help with the conflict they have living with the real world - but at this point I'm not willing to say that some of what I'm hearing in the media isn't spin. I think there is a lot more going on underneath that we aren't even hearing about so I'm waiting for all the players to put their cards on the table for all of us to see. sammieswife.
Kudos to you. Not many persons want the facts. They prefer witchunts. I've only two words for them:
This is in no way defending abuse of anyone, so please don't even try to go there.