Is Death ever Spiritual and not Physical?

by jwblog 10 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  jwblog

  I ask this one question, what is the meaning of the first death and the second death as spoken of in Revelations? If Jesus kills off those in the heavens with a two edged sword then why is it satan still lives for one thousand years during the reign of Jesus Christ? What does it mean to be "Born Again"? You cannot be put back into the womb therefore it must have a spiritual meaning?

  Is it possible that all those faiths that teach heaven and hell, along with those that teach that God and Jesus are coming to destroy all the wicked are wrong in their way of thinking?

  Jesus is a savior correct? The Good News of the Kingdom is that all will have a chance at everlasting life does it not?

  What are your thoughts?
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  JCanon

  Since the Bible says that on Judgment Day, which follows the millennium and is not during it, would be of those both righteous and unrighteous, we presume that those killed at Armgeddon wiill return on Judgment Day. In that case, no one technically undergoes the "second death" to Hades until Judmgent Day. All those killed before Judgment Day are in Hades, the common grave, which means they are coming back.

  As far as "spiritual death" goes. A spiritual death is presumed for the prodigal son while he was away from his father's house and living a life of sin:

  Luke 15: 22 But the father said to his slaves, ‘Quick! bring out a robe, the best one, and clothe him with it, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet. 23 And bring the fattened young bull, slaughter it and let us eat and enjoy ourselves, 24 because this my son was dead and came to life again; he was lost and was found.’ And they started to enjoy themselves.

  JC
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  jwblog

  Since the Bible says that on Judgment Day, which follows the millennium and is not during it, would be of those both righteous and unrighteous, we presume that those killed at Armgeddon wiill return on Judgment Day. In that case, no one technically undergoes the "second death" to Hades until Judmgent Day. All those killed before Judgment Day are in Hades, the common grave, which means they are coming back.

  As far as "spiritual death" goes. A spiritual death is presumed for the prodigal son while he was away from his father's house and living a life of sin:

  Hello JC,

  During the Millenium satan is in prison and not allowed to mislead the nations. Judgment Day is when Jesus Christ returns correct? The second death has no resurrection whereas the first death does. Which man upon the earth will not repent once they see Jesus Christ arrive in all of his glory? Which missiles will they choose to use against the son of God?
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  WTWizard

  In fact, one can die spiritually. Most of the world, and all the Jehovah's Witlesses, are in fact spiritually dead and don't even know it.

  One dies spiritually when we pick up mysticism. This is most commonly associated with religion. You are taught how to interpret the Bible, and they make it extremely difficult to see it any other way. They teach you that God is good (the same God that stifled man in Eden, demanded sacrifice from Cain and was not satisfied, stifled freedom of sex, destroyed Nimrod's efforts to start a major value creating city, used David to kill Philistines for not worshiping Him, and created so many "sins" that pleasure has to bow to value destroying sacrificing). They teach you that Satan is the enemy (the same Satan that liberated Adam from a potentially stifling and oppressive regime).

  It continues with corrupting Jesus' true message. Jesus taught that people did best when set free of unnecessary rules and sacrifice, and Paul misinterpreted it and created a new system of sacrifice and more rules. Jesus went after the religious leaders that wanted man under them. Effectively, the only strict rules Jesus wanted to see is no initiatory force, threats of force, or fraud (all of which the Pharisees were guilty of). Jesus did not try to guilt people into giving up debauched lifestyles--instead, he went after the root cause (the stagnation) and sought to eliminate it. Effectively, Jesus correctly taught that a debauched lifestyle is a symptom that is best treated by removing the root cause.

  By contrast, most Christian and cultist religions today teach that Christ had little tolerance for the practice of sin. True, Christ would forgive you if you corrected the symptom. However, they go after the symptoms while leaving the underlying stagnation in place. Christ would not be pleased if the symptoms were removed but the underlying cause is still there.

  Today, most people see Christ and Satan as polar opposites. But, a fully objective look at the Bible (and I do not claim to be totally expert in that--just more objective than average) reveals Satan's work as a liberating one. Christ's work is also liberating. Hmm.
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  jwblog

  Jesus Christ lived under law, satan chose to live without law. Which government is better, one who condemns drunkness on the streets or one who allows it?

  Now back to the topic, does Jesus Christ destroy wicked humans upon his return or are they all forgiven once repentant?
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  JCanon

  Hello Jwblog:

  During the Millenium satan is in prison and not allowed to mislead the nations. Judgment Day is when Jesus Christ returns correct? The second death has no resurrection whereas the first death does. Which man upon the earth will not repent once they see Jesus Christ arrive in all of his glory? Which missiles will they choose to use against the son of God?

  The timeline is this: Armageddon occurs, Satan is abyssed for 1000 years. Then Satan is released to test post-millenial mankind, likely 40 years. Then Satan is destroyed along with the rebels. I'm assuming these, since they were under Christ's rule and rebelled would go straight to Gehenna with Satan. It is then after this 40-year test that JUDGMENT DAY begins. First juged are those still alive from the millennium called the "great and the small." Then after that the sea and Hades give up their dead, both righteous and unrighteous, and they are judged according to their previous lives. Judgment Day is after Satan is destroyed. Just follow the specific chronology in the Bible for the series of these events. Judgment Day could last for 80 years.

  This specific period of Judgment Day does not include any judgment done between the second coming and Armageddon when the nations are judged. Even so, those who die at Armageddon will come back for a final judgment since part of the judging process must include the millennium scenario under Christ's rule, where everybody knows the rules and has a full knowledge of Jehovah and his requirements.

  JC
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  JCanon

  Now back to the topic, does Jesus Christ destroy wicked humans upon his return or are they all forgiven once repentant?

  This is not a question that is applicable to what happens. Christ returns and he "separates the sheep from the goats." He does some teaching and preaching and some are able to gather with him. Those who reject or ignore the Bible are subject to die at Armageddon or if they survive Armageddon, of old age and will not be granted life during the millennium. But they will come back on Judgment Day and the righteous judges will decide, based upon all factors including imperfection and the response under Christ's rule, who is worthy of eternal life or not.

  So yes, it is possible to repent and in fact, some will repent at the last moment. But the Biblical ratios suggest out of the current world population, one third will die at Armageddon. Another third not chosen to live during the millennium will die of old age; these would be those not violently opposed to the kingdom. Obviously, they would provide some stability after that sharp population decrease. One third will survive into the millennium and enjoy rule under Christ until Satan is released at the end of the 1000 years.

  But not to worry. The second coming occurred in 1992 so people have been "marked" for life since then. Some people who aren't even Christians will be chosen not only for the Bride Class but for the millennium. But a huge number not chosen for the millennium will still get eternal life during Judgment Day. So the millennium is a grand opportunity for the people living today.

  So, you might already be marked for being in the Bride Class (1,440,000) in which case you will help administer things during the millennium. Or you will be part of the one-third who will enjoy the millennium during the rule of Christ, which will be a grand time. Or, since you're probably not a political person wanting to hold onto this current world, at the very least you will be allowed to live our your life to old age after Armageddon (79-1/2, or if special mightness, 80...sorry, I know, bad joke! ) So hope for the best.

  But, once Armageddon clearly starts, repenting will not work. Everybody will repent after it starts to rain, that's a given. The thing is to repent before the destruction begins. Get marked before the angels come to destroy. Have you broken all ties with BTG (the Illuminati?). Just asking...

  JC
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  Satanus

  Imo, spirits cannot be killed. We are spirits incarnated. The spirit part of us is quite passive. To get into that mode, we need to quiet our other modes, ego, animal, emotional. People who use crack, or get into cults like the wt further repress the spirit. But, it only goes to sleep for a while.
  
  Bible mythology is either alegorical, or myth. Jesus killing satan is worthy of a comic book. Resurrection, as well, belongs in a comic book. My opinions, anyway.
  
  S
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  Narkissos

  The interpretation of Revelation is open to debate, because (1) its "scenario" is partly contraditory (probably due to the mixing of several apocalyptical sources) and (2) how far its author(s) took its "futuristic" parts literally is also uncertain. The big but common misunderstanding (due, in part, to its peculiar literary genre and to its place as the last book in the NT canon) is to take it as the final... revelation on history as "God's plan" and, consequently, as a general frame to interpret the rest of Christian scripture.

  Once you get rid of that presupposition, you can notice that life and death in the NT are actually used both metaphorically (as the description of a present, "spiritual" or mystical experience) and realistically (as a perspective of either "everlasting life" or "eternal perdition" as the outcome of everyone's earthly lifetime), depending on the texts.

  From an "unbeliever"'s perspective, a simple philosophical reflection can help, fwiw: you (the subject reading this line) will never be dead. Always dying, in a sense, but never dead.
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  JCanon

  I agree with Narkissos, in that indeed, it depends upon the context. I think death is used in a variety of ways. It hadn't come immediately to mind, but in Revelation "eternal life" is considered as "life" and thus prior to that attainment one is considered to still be dead. Thus the survivors of the millennium that are to be judged after the millennium and after Satan is destroyed are called "the dead, the great and the small." They are the ones who are referred to as not "coming to life until the 1000 years are ended." So there is an allegorical and figurative reference for being "dead" that is not literally applied. But not hard to follow or understand, clearly.

  JC