You failed to rationalize the part about forcing "people to accept Jesus as savior at the end of a sword" bit...
That has no excuse and no rationalization. BTS
I Do Not Understand Why JWs Leave & Become Catholics!
by minimus 239 Replies latest jw friends
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BurnTheShips
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minimus
I just heard on Boston radio that there will be an expose' on TV as to the Archdiocese knowing that many pedophile priests are living in neighborhoods with lots of kiddies and the Archbishop is not telling the public anything about where these priests are so as to protect the children.
When I hear how terrible JWs are for their policies regarding child abusers, which I agree are wrong, I can't help but wonder how anybody could support the Church with their continuing record of subterfuge with their sicko priests!
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undercover
That has no excuse and no rationalization.
So, I have to ask...
Would Jesus want the organization that did such things to carry his banner?
If the Church lived within Jesus during that time, would Jesus have let them do such a thing? Or maybe they weren't as tight with the Christ kid as they thought...
...and if they weren't tight enough with him then, how can anyone prove they're tight with him now?
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Mary
First century Christianity did not last long in it's original form.
Second century Christianity did not last long in it's original form. Fifth century Christianity did not last long in it's original form. 21st century Christianity will not last long in it's original form.
Yes but you're missing my point: Christianity had it's beginning during the 1st century (and not the 2nd or 5th century) and included those who had been taught directly by Jesus. Therefore it's only logical that any claims one makes of being the 'one true church' today, should be based on their ability to prove that they're not very different from the original Christianity. Catholicism, from what I can see, bears little resemblance to 1st century Christianity as I mentioned in my previous post.
By todays standard, Jesus would be either a Reformed or Conservative Jew. He most certainly would not be a Catholic, Protestant or Jehovah's Witness.
Well then, to what do you atrribute Matthew 28:19, 20? Or John 3:16? Or basically the entire NT to? What kind of tradional Jew would teach such things?
I never said Jesus was a traditional Jew. In fact I said the opposite. He wanted to see reform and changes made within the religion itself as it had become increasingly legalistic over the previous century or two and this of course is what got him into trouble. Nevertheless, he was still a Jew and he observed many of the Jewish customs such as the Sabbath (although not to the fanatical degree that the Pharisees did), all the feasts and celebrations that were part of his family's heritage and of course the Passover. His original disciples were all Jews and the New Testament was written exclusively by Jews. None of them were 'Catholics'. At the very inception, they weren't even known as 'Christians'----they were considered 'Messianic Jews' and they kept all the beliefs and practices they always had with the sole exception of accepting Jesus as the Messiah.
Obviously Jesus did not leave the religion fully formed, and if we take John 14:26 as having any weight at all, we would have to allow time and room for doctrinal development.
Like I said, there is no scripture that even hints that Jesus' followers were to start a new religion. Changes needed to be made yes, but there certainly was no indication that a whole rash of new doctrines was the way to go, with the abandonment of everything that Jesus himself had practiced throughout His short life. Had Jesus' brother James remained in the forefront of the early congregations, there's little doubt that Christianity would have retained much of the Jewish traditions and practices that they were all familiar with. Instead, Paul of Tarsus (who had never even met Jesus) grabs the reigns after his conversion and starts Jesus' followers down a different path. It pissed off many of the followers to the point where they wanted to kill Paul at one point.
I have no personal problem with any Catholic and if someone wants to convert---go for it. My whole point was that Catholicism today bears little resemblance to what original Christianity was; by many of their doctrines and their 'traditions'.
As for Jesus looking like a Reformed or Conservative Jew, we must remember that Reformed and Conservative Judaism were greatly influenced by the dominant Christian cultural milieu in which they themselves developed!
It matters little why they were influenced; the point is: Jesus would still have been a practising Jew were He around today. He would not be a "Christian". I've had this argument with Catholics before---some are quite insistent that Jesus was a Catholic and get quite irrate when you point out that He was not. I just don't get that.
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Shawn10538
I feel the same way about everyone who doesn't believe what I do.
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FlyingHighNow
When I hear how terrible JWs are for their policies regarding child abusers, which I agree are wrong, I can't help but wonder how anybody could support the Church with their continuing record of subterfuge with their sicko priests!
I guess I look at it this way: the church is huge. It's very complex in it's set up and vast spread. The church has it's dark side. The church has it's good side. The church does many very good things for communities and individuals around the globe. It's terrible that the pedophile priests have been protected and moved around and hidden, however the church is not completely evil. They do much more good than the fools in the church that have made these bad decisions concerning the priests who have hurt people. The Catholic church accomplishes tremendous good in feeding the hungry, running hospitals, orphanages, homes for mothers in trouble, centers for adoption of babies and children, food banks, housing programs, aiding the homeless, clinics, blood drives, giving haven to political refugees, ministering to the dying in hospices, ministering to the broken hearted and much more.
With the WTBTS, they do none of those good things. They are basically set up to make the lives of millions miserable, break up families, brag on themselves, etc.: you all know the drill.
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FlyingHighNow
Oh yes and the Catholic Church provides sliding scale fee counseling for the mentally ill. The WTBTS basically doesn't give a damn about the mentally ill.
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Carlos_Helms
"I just heard on Boston radio that there will be an expose' on TV as to the Archdiocese knowing that many pedophile priests are living in neighborhoods with lots of kiddies and the Archbishop is not telling the public anything about where these priests are so as to protect the children.
When I hear how terrible JWs are for their policies regarding child abusers, which I agree are wrong, I can't help but wonder how anybody could support the Church with their continuing record of subterfuge with their sicko priests!"
Wow. That was kind of below-the belt. You paint with a very broad brush, Minimus. I thought the pedophile priest horse had been beaten to death. So, tell me: if it was revealed that a member or two of your family participated in some sort of sinful misbehavior, would I be justified in dissing your entire family? My friend, the church isn't found in it's hierarchy; nor is it found in the priests, bishops or deacons. The body of Christ is found in the people. Good Lord, man...this is really elemental stuff. I don't understand where you're coming from, Minimus; but wherever it is, I don't want to be.
Peace!
Carlos -
justhuman
Wow still going strong with this subject....
Well here are some more tips:
Some friends in this post they have complained about the huge Churches that the Catholics and others are building. My question is: Why don't they complain about King's Solomon Temple of Jerusalim that was an amazing stracture!!! Build with gold, marble, prescious wood?
When Christians came out from the catacombs after Saint Constantine gave freedom of religion to the Romanae Empire, for the first time they had the chance to praise their God. That is why we see those Churches in the East and West Romanae. So is it wrong on their behalf to copy what King Solomon did? If you look at the Catacombs in the Roman Empire, most of the underground Churches have similarities with the Orthodox Chruches that we are building for more than 1700 years!!!
Regarding the "idols" idol "eidolo" in Greek, "eidos" it means the thing that we can see, or we can understand with our senses, and it has to do ONLY with the visualization of God. NEVER in the Bible refering the word idol exept the portrait God. In the Bible ONLY God cannot be portraited. That is why in the Orthodox Church you will not find an Icon fo God. There is a difference in the words Worship-proskino in Greek. There is honorable worship, and we can honour anyone. Jesus says to worship-proskinisoun - honour the Bishop of the Church Philadelphia It is honorable worship. Don't indicate the example of Paul and Barnabas, because in Greece the crowd tried to worship them as Idolater God's- Hermes and Zeus, and that is why they refuse. So in Church we honour the Saints, and Jesus Mother, and this is not idolworship...
The Orthodox Church kept the Apostolic succesion for 2000 years, and faith, as it was delivered by the Apostles and the Church. The Bible came out from the Church, it is one of the expressions of God's Gospel. Either you accept the Bible as it is - 77 books, or the Protestands must form a new Bible. Jesus left, but before He left He said to the disciples that He will sent the Holy Spirit to guide them. This Holy Spirit never left the Church and it is there for 2000 years to guide the Church.
As I said before both Early Churches have lot in common. But still there is a Theological problem due to language with the Catholic Church. I consider my self lucky to be able to have the original texts of the Bible in my language. And in no way I can accept anyone to try to explain to me the meanings of the Greek words like WT does. Indeed the Catholic Church has done many mistakes. But can you tell me someone that is perfect? I have seen also in the Orthodox Church human mistakes. Even a civil war in my country...I have see religious leaders to make bussiness as their profession, instead of taking care of the Church. On the other hand I have seen the Church to build hospitals, and youth centers for the drag addicted ones. They help many people finnancially and emotionally. I have see priests that they are next to the people and try to help them. On the other hand there are priests that they are doing bad things. So does it mean that the Theological dogma of the Church is wrong? Jesus accepted the Priests of Jerusalim, although there was corruption in the Temple, and He did fight that corruption. Still He accepted the Jewish faith, with all of their traditions.
I'm posting some links regarding the Christian Orthodox faith for those who would like to have more search on the matter of the Early Christianity and the function of the Apostolic Church that was preserved through the centuries
http://www.oodegr.com/english/dogmatiki1/F2g.htm formation and structure of the Church
http://www.oodegr.com/english/dogmatiki1/F2e.htm formation and structure of the Church
http://www.oodegr.com/english/dogmatiki1/E5.htm Christolgoy
http://www.oodegr.com/english/dogmatiki1/D2d.htm the filioque issue
http://www.oodegr.com/english/dogmatiki1/D2c.htm the filioque issue St. Augustines
http://www.oodegr.com/english/dogmatiki1/F2c.htm the Trinitarian issue
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BurnTheShips
So, I have to ask...
Would Jesus want the organization that did such things to carry his banner?
If the Church lived within Jesus during that time, would Jesus have let them do such a thing? Or maybe they weren't as tight with the Christ kid as they thought...
...and if they weren't tight enough with him then, how can anyone prove they're tight with him now?
Jesus let Judas betray him.
Jesus let Peter deny him three times.
BTS