What is 2 Pet. 3:13 referring to when it speaks of a "new heavens and a new earth"? If the JWs are wrong about the earth being transformed, than what is the new earth that Peter speaks of? I've heard many Christians claim that Christ will return, and that the final battle of armageddon will ensue. The survivors will then be taken away to heaven. If this is the case, then what will become of the earth? It seems to me that this belief is as flawed and unbiblical as that held by JWs.
A question for Christians
by keyser soze 13 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Narkissos
I don't count as "Christian," but...
The expression "new heavens and new earth" (in 2 Peter and Revelation 21, cf. Isaiah 65-66) is to be taken globally as referring to the apocalyptical belief, common to several sections of 1st-century Judaism and early Christianity, of the "age/world to come" (ha `olam ha-bâh in rabbinical Hebrew) as opposed to "this age/world" (ha `olam ha-zeh). It is simply pictured after the common ancient cosmology (heavens/earth, cf. Genesis 1; don't imagine a spherical earth btw). So it is true that to the Christians who did share this perspective (not all), the ultimate hope was not "heavenly" (in the sense of going to heaven for a chosen few while life on earth would go on), but a "new age/world".
However, the WT departs from this "Biblical" motif, not only by teaching two distinct "hopes" (one heavenly, the other earthly), which has no ground whatsoever in the N.T., but also by asserting that the "new earth" is none other than the present one -- only "transformed," as you put it. It is apparent from the context of both Revelation and 2 Peter that the present "world" (heavens/earth) has to be destroyed (through fire in 2 Peter, building on the Stoic doctrine of ekpurôsis) and that the "new heavens and new earth" are meant as a new creation.
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JosephMalik
Keyser soze,
The answer is simple but present day theology hides the answer. Take the entire text in context and forget about what the JW’s teach. What does the text say?:
2 Pet 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
After a very long time, thousands of years even:
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Long enough for the faith to produce many disciples with time enough for the faithful or beloved ones to repent. While those still alive at this time will be able to see the promised end at least every disciple until that end could both visualize and understand it: So.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
The heavens shall pass away, a Jewish term for the Governments of this earth which will pass away noisily and be replaced with the promised Kingdom. The various elements that make up society along with the works they produced will be done away with was illustrated by their melting or being burned up. This is Armageddon as you called it being described symbolically. This is not destruction as something to fear but a cleansing and something to look forward to. Like getting rid of earths criminal elements, something we do today.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
The holy ones are not expecting to go anywhere in all this chaos. They are expecting to be resurrected or changed at this time and become part of the Kingdom being established right here on earth at this time. So.
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
The new heavens or promised Kingdom along with its newly resurrected and restored human population will continue at this time and dwelleth in righteousness. Exactly who or what make up this new human population is another story. Most will not be followers like the theif that died beside our Lord. But the earth will be filled as promised in the beginning something that Paul also taught. Realizing this Peter said further:
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
We are now informed of the facts. Nowhere do the scriptures teach that humans will go to a place called heaven and exist in bodies that are not human. Peter was saying what Jesus and Paul also taught which was that human immortality was something we can have right here on earth as human beings in a Kingdom ruled by Christ. This is called a new heavens and a new earth. Simple.
Joseph
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keyser soze
Thanks Nark and Joseph. I have done no research into the context of bible verses, nor into the bible itself since leaving the borg. I was mainly looking for a simple way to refute the JWs literal, present-day interpretation of the scripture. Verses 8-11 definitely help shed light on it. I guess it illustrates how they zero in on certain verses that seem to support their theology, while ignoring surrounding verses that change the context.
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hamsterbait
Remember too Paul's pointing out in Rom 11 that the promise to the Jews that God would restore them to a homeland ruled by the Messiah had NOT been taken back. It would happen.
Even Marthas words about Lazarus "I know he will rise up on the last day" shows she believed in an earthly resurrection, as do the words put into Job's mouth "in this body I shall see God."
So as I see it the early Christains believed they were ALL going to heaven, with earthly resurrection for everybody else.
HB
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Narkissos
Verses 8-11 definitely help shed light on it.
At least if you read what they actually say rather than JosephMalik's comment which, in WT fashion, implies they don't mean what they say.
Paul's pointing out in Rom 11 that the promise to the Jews that God would restore them to a homeland ruled by the Messiahhad NOT been taken back.
I don't exactly read thatin Romans 11.
Even Marthas words about Lazarus "I know he will rise up on the last day" shows she believed in an earthly resurrection
Maybe. But notice that in the Revelation scenario the general resurrection takes place after the destruction of the former "heavens and earth" (20:11) and before the "new heavens and new earth" -- in the worldless interim between the two worlds, as it were.
as do the words put into Job's mouth "in this body I shall see God."
Unfortunately this is not that simple in Hebrew, as the (probably corrupt) text lends itself to opposite interpretations. Remember that Job actually denies the idea of resurrection in chapter 14 (provided you read the entire tirade and not just v. 13-16).
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Junction-Guy
I believe Christians will be raptured to heaven, then seven years of tribulation, after that Armageddon (not like the JW version), then the thousand years of peace, then the earth and heaven will burn. There will be a new heaven and a new earth.
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JosephMalik
Verses 8-11 definitely help shed light on it.
At least if you read what they actually say rather than JosephMalik's comment which, in WT fashion, implies they don't mean what they say.
Narkissos,
This is simply how verses regarding the end are done. Verse 8 for example sets the stage for Peter's comments as it is relative and not literal. There is no reason to take the burning and elements literal either. We should see the words the way the Jews saw them during the time they lived. For example the elements to the Jewish mind were things like their Law and customs. Ga 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? This is also done with words like burning. Burning is simply a way of getting rid of something you do not want anymore. It is destruction, death. Re 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. We should also not confuse earth with planet. The planet is God's creation and will endure all this activity on its surface. This planet is not the target of God's wrath. Re 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. Earth was used to depict our inhabited earth and not the planet. This is one of its definitions. So we have to take time to think. Peter was showing us how to picture the end in a simple way. Literal and careless interpretation on the other hand has resulted in hell fire, immortal soul and other blasphemous doctrines. This is the direction you have taken as you have shown us above.
Joseph
P.S. You said: Maybe. But notice that in the Revelation scenario the general resurrection takes place after the destruction of the former "heavens and earth" (20:11) and before the "new heavens and new earth" -- in the worldless interim between the two worlds, as it were.
This is not true. The Nations are shown to be alive during the thousand years in chapter 20 along with the saints. The Nations are part of the general resurrection. They have a different status as second death has authority over them yes, this much is true but they all exist together at its very beginning. Later in chapter 20 during another vision parallel of this time some may give this impression but this is simply a new paragraph of this time that shows us how such nations got to be there in the first place. Chapter 20 agrees with Peter and Paul just considered regarding the timing of events. Such timing does not originate in the Revelation. It was already established by our Lord at Matthew 25, along with Paul, Peter, and Matha as stated.
JM
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peacefulpete
Hey Narkissos, just popped on the forum briefly and caught your comment about the new heaven and earth implying a non heavenly hope. I'm a bit rusty on the various apocalypic Jewish camps. I am convinced that Rev is a patchwork of more than one author but the work as it sits does seem to depict humans in heaven as well as a recreated earth/heaven. How do you understand this?
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Narkissos
Hi PP, great to hear from you! How have you been doing?
As you know, in detail apocalyptical representations and scenarii are all over the place... and that certainly accounts for many inconsistencies in the Biblical "Revelation" patchwork too.
But, as a general idea (within the limits inherent to generalisation), I think "heaven" is very often understood as the invisible "place" where good/holy earthly things or characters are kept safe during the time of history (= this age), awaiting for full (= "earthly," which may also stand for "visible" and "real") manifestation at the end of this age and/or in(to) the age to come. So the paradise, the tree of life, the temple, the ark, as well as Adam, Enoch, the Patriarchs, Moses, Elijah... and Jesus himself can be described as taken up to heaven until the time of fulfillment (cf. Acts 3:21, "who must remain in heaven until the time of universal restoration"). In many cases it is a provisional, temporary, intermediary or penultimate state rather than a final destiny. In Revelation this may well apply to the "144,000 on Mount Zion" or to the "great crowd in heaven" (possibly not only as an "intermediate state" post mortem, but also as a sort of safe "heavenly double" of real people while they are still struggling and suffering in history). On the other hand, the "new heavens and new earth" are almost always described in "frozen pictures": this is not the start of a "new history" with a succession of events, but a rather anhistoric "perfect(ed)" state -- as befits the horizon of "eternity," only put in narrative form after the main Jewish manner.