Finding Faith

by Ima Apostate 54 Replies latest jw experiences

• 

  Ima Apostate

  Wow. There certainly are some mixed views out there concerning this. Let me just say that I'm not suprised at all that so many people here are completely confused about God and don't see the point in trying to understand him. After all, he makes it pretty freakin' hard. You can't pick up the Bible, read it, and say, "Wow! I get it now!" And weird fundamentalist Christians don't make it any easier to find faith. (And sorry to anyone here who has simply stopped believing in God - you totally have that right - I was just never able to completely get rid of the idea that there might be something there.)

  In my experience, I would say I was agnostic for years and years. And nothing happened in my life to make me seek out faith. Absolutely nothing. Life went on as it always has and it's been pretty freakin' good. If I am seeking faith for comfort, it is an unconscious desire.

  But for some reason about 11 months ago, something led me to faith. I started looking, and praying on the scriptures that deal with "seek and you shall find". I also read a terrific book by Tom Wright called Simply Christian about this time, and it showed me that mainstream Christians don't necessarily believe all those doctrines that JWs taught me they did (like eternal hellfire, going up to the clouds of heaven to meet Jesus, etc).

  Bottom line, I think something created us. And I think that something wants us to realize that it's about him, not us. I also believe that Yahweh in the old testament was loving AND forgiving. Do you know how many times he spared Israel, how many times they kept screwing up, and how many times he sought to forgive them? Yes God is wrathful at times, but I'm a parent, and my kids will tell you that I've been wrathful when I've been angry at what they've done. Jesus has revealed in the New Testament that above all, God is a god of love, and he wants us to love him and our fellow man.

  I don't type this to tell you what to believe, this is simply what I've been able to wrap my insane brain around since coming out of JW brainwashing and then slowly drawn out of a long period of Agnosticism. You all believe what you want! I won't even claim that I'm right... It's just what I feel deeply and what makes sense to me after a careful study of the Bible and human history.
• 

  Ima Apostate

  BurntheShips,

  I'm so glad you were able to find faith as well. Setting foot in an Episcopal church 9 months ago was the scariest thing I have ever done. I was so freaked out by everything - the huge cross, the font, the pastor in his weird outfit (oh my God - where is his suit and tie!! ;-), and the reading of the Psalms and especially the Creed. But when he preached a gospel that I have heard a million times in a completely new light, my heart broke. I literally had tears in my eyes. I realized I'd been dead wrong about scores of people for a long time. Don't get me wrong, I still have my reservations about Fundamentalist Southern Christians... But there is a whole world of believers out there who really have a good sense about what is really going on.

  I understand not everyone wants a relationship with God or believes in him, and I'm not here to tell them what they need to do and what they need to believe. I just hope they keep an open mind as they move through life about the people who have managed to find faith in something beyond themselves.

  -Ima
• 

  Deputy Dog

  Ima Apostate

  I wonder how many XJWs feel as Luther did?

  Martin Luther's Account of His Own Conversion

  by Martin Luther (1483-1546)

  The following selection is taken from the Preface to the Complete Edition of Luther's Latin Writings.

  Meanwhile, I had already during that year returned to interpret the Psalter anew. I had confidence in the fact that I was more skilful, after I had lectured in the university on St. Paul's epistles to the Romans, to the Galatias, and the one to the Hebrews. I had indeed been captivated with an extraordinary ardor for understanding Paul in the Epistle to the Romans. But up till then it was not the cold blood ab out the heart, but a single word in Chapter 1, "In it the righteousness of God is revealed," that had stood in my way. For I hated that word "righteousness of God," which, according to the use and custom of all the teachers, I had been taught to understand philosophically regarding the formal or active righteousness, as they call it, with which God is righteous and punishes the unrighteous sinner.

  Though I lived as a monk without reproach, I felt that I was a sinner before God with an extremely disturbed conscience.

  I could not believe that he was placated by my satisfaction. I did not love, yes, I hated the righteous God who punishes sinners, and secretly, if not blasphemously, certainly murmuring greatly, I was angry with God, and said, "As if, indeed, it is not enough, that miserable sinners, eternally lost through original sin, are crushed by every kind of calamity by the law of the decalogue, without having God add pain to pain by the gospel and also by the gospel threatening us with his righteousness and wrath!" Thus I raged with a fierce and troubled conscience. Nevertheless, I beat importunately upon Paul at that place, most ardently desiring to know what St. Paul wanted.

  At last, by the mercy of God, meditating day and night, I gave heed to the context of the words, namely, "In it the righteousness of God is revealed, as it is written, 'He who through faith is righteous shall live.'" There I began to understand that the righteousness of God is that by which the righteous lives by a gift of God, namely by faith. And this is the meaning: the righteousness of God is revealed by the gospel, namely, the passive righteousness with which merciful God justifies us by faith, as it is written, "He who through faith is righteous shall live." Here I felt that I was altogether born again and had entered paradise itself through open gates. There a totally other face of the entire Scripture showed itself to me. Thereupon I ran through the Scripture from memory. I also fount in other terms an analogy, as, the work of God, that is what God does in us, the power of God, with which he makes us wise, the strenght of God, the salvation of God, the glory of God.

  And I extolled my sweetest word with a love as great as the hatred with which I had before hated the word "righteousness of God." Thus that place in Paul was for me truly the gate to paradise. Later I read Augustine's The Spirit and the Letter, where contrary to hope I found that he, too, interpreted God's righteousness in a similar way, as the righteousness with which God clothes us when he justifies us ( Augustine passage included below ). Although this was heretofore said imperfectly and he did not explain all things concerning imputation clearly, it nevertheless was pleasing that God's righteousness with which we are justified was taught.
• 

  RollerDave

  Wow.
  
  Now I remember why I don't post so much anymore.
  
  Who has the energy to parry and defend against the constant onslaught of atheism on this board.
  
  I admire Burn for putting forth the effort, but I am no longer up to the task.
  
  I kinda find it similar that the JW's load the language by calling their particular belief system "the Truth" and atheists try to lay claim to the term "reason."
  
  As if no "reasonable" person could have faith. Then they talk out of the other side of their mouth and say they are happy for you that you've found something that works for you, but the condescension shows through.
  
  It's a bigotry of talking in normative form. very discouraging and intolerant, but I digress.
  
  I have faith, but no religion. I am somewhat distrustful of man made organizations after escaping the B0rgtower. Like you, I was never dunked so they have to find their own individual reasons to shun me.
  
  I don't make it very difficult for them.
  
  I have lately been opening up to holidays and beliefs I once found intolerable and I certainly have this board to thank for that.
  
  I think my SO, Becky might like to attend a church and think that maybe, at long last, I might be ready for it.
  
  I don't know though, it is possible that thanks to my JW upbringing, I may never feel truly at home anywhere.
  
  RD
• 

  wildfell

  Am I not enough of a defender for you?

  Hi BurnTheShips

  You are an excellent defender of the Christian faith!

  In my opinion, you won this little debate hands down. I greatly enjoy your knowledge, your logic and your faith.

  kind regards

  wildfell
• 

  trevor

  RollerDave

  Who has the energy to parry and defend against the constant onslaught of atheism on this board.

  In your post you appear to assume that questioning what it means to be a Christian makes one an Atheist.

  I for example do not have faith in Jesus or the God of the Bible and ask those that loudly claim to be Christians and quote from the Bible as their source of authority, to be consistent or stop claiming to be Christians.

  So how do you view the Bible? Would you say the comment I made, shown below, makes me an Atheist?

  Most people including myself ‘accept’ that the Bible is an historical account of man’s struggle to find the meaning of life, written by imperfect men. Seeing the Bible in this realistic way we do not accept every word it contains as the Word of God and final authority in any discussion.

  You state:

  I have faith, but no religion.

  Many people have no religion but do not consider themselves to be Atheists.

  Do you accept the Bible as the Holy Word of God or agree with BTS? Who stated:

  For a Christian, the Word of God is not a book, but Jesus Christ.

  What do you have faith in that allows you to consider that you are not an Atheist?

  trevor
• 

  BurnTheShips

  I for example do not have faith in Jesus or the God of the Bible and ask those that loudly claim to be Christians and quote from the Bible as their source of authority, to be consistent or stop claiming to be Christians.

  Trevor, do you consider the Catholic Church to be a Christian denomination? You quote me as an example of a non-Christian for writing thus: "For a Christian, the Word of God is not a book, but Jesus Christ."

  Here from the official Catholic document on the faith:

  108 Still, the Christian faith is not a "religion of the book." Christianity is the religion of the "Word" of God, a word which is "not a written and mute word, but the Word which is incarnate and living".

  Possibly the greatest Christian theologian of the 20th century was Karl Barth who wrote that the Bible "is not the Revelation" but "the witness to the Revelation, and this is expressed in human terms...." I guess he was not a Christian by your criteria!

  So, Trevor, you have shot yourself in the foot, and seem to continue to pull the trigger. Don't ask me to stop calling myself anything in order to conform to your own narrow and blinkered definitions. It is arrogant to begin with, and based on a wrong understanding to boot.

  BTS
• 

  trevor

  The Catholic church, like other Christian movements, interprets the Bible as it suits it to and had a large hand in the compilation of the present version.

  According to the Bible, Christianity is not just about believing in a gentle Jesus as Christ the Word. It is also about accepting the God that he prayed to and accepting the Bible in its entirety as the Word of God. This means accepting the many vengeful deeds that were carried out by that God and recorded in his inspired Word. Also the threats and warnings to those who take away one word from what is written or go beyond what is written.

  Abraham had faith long before Christ appeared and he was counted worthy - according to the Bible. I do not accept that God is remotely like the petulant, angry thug portrayed in the Bible. As a non- Christian I am at liberty to hold that opinion. As A very vocal Christian - You are not. The Bible cannot be dismissed by Christians as just an ancient man made opinion of God. It is an intrinsic part of the whole story of Christianity. Modern Christians want to pick and choose as it suits them.

  Vicars openly declare that most of the Bible from Adam and Eve, Noah and the Ark, through to the Revelation are fiction. I hope they are right because I am incapable of loving the God of the Bible. I am honest enough to realize that according to the Bible, Christ did love this God and to claim to be a Christian, I would have to as well. Of course you see them as one and the same which actually makes matters worse.

  It brings me back to my original point. You continually quote and highlight detailed Bible passages as the ultimate authority to prove your points. Now either the whole Bible is the Word of God or it just an unreliable collection of mussing written by simple minded ancient men.

  I have tried to follow you argument and appreciate the time you have taken to try to explain. I do see where you are coming from but find you and other modern Christians like to cherry pick and appear to belong to a gentle peaceful religion that has nothing to do with the God of the Israelites.

  At the same time that you quote from parts of the Bible that suit you, you say it is not the basis of your faith. I realize that a belief in Christ is the basis for your faith but to be consistent the Bible must also be accepted as the Word of God.

  You are like a zealous vegetarian seeing nothing wrong with drinking milk. You can’t have milk without accepting calves are slaughtered to produce it. You can’t have Christ without accepting the Bible as the Word of God and all that is written in.

  trevor
• 

  Meeting Junkie No More

  Roller Dave:

  I'm with you on not having the stomach for all the back and forth on some of these threads...but I enjoy reading them nonetheless.

  Trevor:

  I think you make some really good points..except for calves being slaughtered for milk - I think you meant veal, no?
• 

  trevor

  Cows only produce milk when they are calving, so they are inseminated and give birth, usually by cesarean, so they start to produce milk.

  The unwanted calves are slaughtered and sold as veal. The anti veal lobby in the UK have made it unacceptable to eat veal so the young calves are sold on very cheaply to France. In the UK they are an unwanted by product of milk.