Does love exist ?

by caliber 42 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Here's some interesting thoughts from a book on the mind I just finished. Due to some experiments on brain activity and action, it appears that brain activity increases shortly before a decision is acted on. Let me repeat, activity increases before. The experimenter theorizes that the brain is first bombarded with dozens of options. It then picks one. Or rather it, says "no" to all the other choices. Many receptors, or choices, are blocked, and one is kept open.

    So yes, even in the biochemical world, there are choices.

    "Shall I show kindness, even if I risk rejection and no hope of personal gain?

    Decisions, decisions."

    The brain also favors choices repeated over time. This might explain optimists, who see daisies on a rainy day, and pessimists, who live under their own personal cloud in all sorts of weather. Our observations become our world, as unique as our neighbour.

  • LtCmd.Lore
    LtCmd.Lore
    You can't prove to me with solid evidence that you love, hate, fear or are angry etc, therefore the emotion only exists in your mind.

    That's completely correct. Where else would they exist?

  • jgnat
    jgnat
    the emotion only exists in your mind

    The mind is discrete and becoming increasingly measurable. So I would say, if you can measure the difference, say, of "love" and "hate" by the biochemical changes in mind and body, it exists. Empirically.

  • Awakened07
    Awakened07

    Burn,

    As is usual in these debates, I could try to pick your reply apart and put my spin on it in a negative way, but I won't (or rather, I'll try not to), because I partially agree with you. I did unfortunately address more or less only one specific kind of deity, something I try not to do in my replies, but I guess some thought patterns remain. It is hard to find evidence of something supernatural in a natural universe using naturalistic means(!). Perhaps impossible, because alternative explanations to a Creator could be given in any instance by describing how that Creator did it.

    I think my point though, was that only some of us have spiritual experiences (I'm talking about the more 'physical' ones here; the kind I don't think any JWs ever have, and not just a 'feeling'). And so they can't be used as proof for those who never experience them. And although the universe is complex, that can't really be used as evidence either.

    I've been thinking about creation, and why the universe looks and behaves the way it does if created. In a human-centric creation, I think my original point holds; that God could have expended much, much less energy and created only what would be necessary for us. After all, we haven't really been able to see more than a few thousand stars until a few hundred years ago, out of "countless" millennia of existence on the planet. We still probably can't see a myriad of galaxies out there. So the trillions of stars out there wasn't for our benefit, at least. Of course, it could be said that perhaps other creatures were created out there as well (non-human centric view). But unless there's intelligent life on a planet around every star, I don't think it would be necessary even then. God could have added and expanded the universe as the need would arise, without actually detracting from our view of it. One could say that we don't know the reasons for God's actions, but that stifles any debate about anything God-related. People could then assert pretty much anything they'd want about God and say "Do you know the reason he did it this way and not that way? No, so shut up!".

    Radiation is not only harmful in this creation, as you point out. But why is it harmful at all? Earth quakes (plate movements) are good for creating mountain ranges etc., but why is the earth created that way at all, since it's also harmful - why not create it solid and already mountainous? The earth's magnetic field and atmosphere is good for protecting us against radiation and rocks hurling through space, but why does it only protect us against some radiation and the smallest rocks? Why do the hurling rocks in space exist at all? Etc. etc. etc.

    While I was a JW growing up, I rationalized the existence of our neighboring planets and the massive universe by thinking that it was all tied together by gravity. That - pretty much - if you removed one planet, it could all collapse, and that God therefore had to create it that way. That earth's 'perfect' orbit around the sun was kept 'in check' by the other planets, and they therefore all had to be there. I don't think this is a very scientifically defendable thought, and not really a very theologically correct thought either, but it was the best I could do as a young JW, trying not to rattle the cage too much. I mean - as for a theological argument, being the Creator, God could very well create one spherical object around another in otherwise totally empty space if he wanted, and hold them there with his power. As for science, we now know how planets arise around a sun, we know how that sun arises. Each planet was not fashioned individually as if from clay and put into its preferred orbit. So those things kinda shoot my old "theory" to heck. They don't shoot all concepts of a creator to heck, of course. But the immense, intricate and complex but at the same time 'violent' (harmful to life), and somewhat flawed universe does pose a few questions.

    Anyway, I'm starting to ramble here. Points: 1) Only a few people have spiritual experiences. 2) Much in the universe could be said to be the work of a Creator, but many things don't make sense in that view also, in my opinion. We have to start making excuses and qualifications for God; if we can't find an answer, the answer is simply "He has a reason". Then he must have a reason for giving me the ability to think rationally. Am I abusing that ability by questioning his actions? Or questioning his very existence?

    Do people really have blind faith? I don't think so. Apart from the notion that complexity must have been created, I think those who believe have often had spiritual experiences, or so they claim. So - they have evidence for themselves, not blind faith. In that kind of universe, one has to wonder why not everyone has those experiences. Are some people 'doomed' pretty much from birth? If so, what's the point of trying to convert anyone? How come anyone has ever been converted? If some have very real spiritual experiences, why does God keep the rest of us guessing? Why create a universe that makes one wonder about these things at all?

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips

    I don't want to argue with you Awakened, and I suppose the tone of my previous post could come across harsh.

    It is hard to find evidence of something supernatural in a natural universe using naturalistic means(!). Perhaps impossible, because alternative explanations to a Creator could be given in any instance by describing how that Creator did it.

    Do you mean like a reproducable scientific experiment, that proves the existence of a supernatural being? Of course once it is scientifically proven, it's not supernatural anymore, is it? It's a catch-22.

    If some have very real spiritual experiences, why does God keep the rest of us guessing? Why create a universe that makes one wonder about these things at all?

    Man says show me and I will believe, God says believe and I will show you.

    BTS

  • WTWizard
    WTWizard

    If so, then there is no way in hell that God could have been its originator--nor is there is any way in hell that it came from that source. In fact, God is a destroyer of love, not the originator.

  • streets76
    streets76

    There is a chemical reaction that happens inside our brains from time to time. It can become particularly strong with the onset of puberty.

    This chemical reaction is what we have come to refer to as "love."

    That's all I know about it, but I think it explains the subject well enough. I also think it has something to do with evolution.

  • caliber
    caliber

    If the eyes are" the window to the soul", May I please be so bold, so arrogant to say.. I have seen love?

    Caliber

  • Terry
    Terry

    What if your question was stated this way?

    Are there things you value above all else? Prove it.

    What we are willing to EXCHANGE to obtain the most valued things tests or PROVES the strength of that valuation.

    Let's look at simple examples.

    If you like cats you smile at them, pet them and speak well of them. But, unless you love cats you won't bring one into your home and live with it, feed it, put up with the smell of the cat litter, etc.

    Simple, eh?

    We love life because we will do almost anything to hang on to it. It is the source of every other value.

    Men die for their country because they value what it represents (The many) above one life: their own.

    We PROVE love by giving everything in exchange for it.

    Love is the highest value, esteem, estimate or appraisal

    LOVE exists where VALUE exists. Value has no necessary existence....Value has contingent existence...value stems from us.

    We personally, subjectively and actively ATTACH values. They are never OBJECTIVE.

    Our human hierarchy of NEEDS creates values in the first place.

    Value (like love) is an abstraction of intellectual conception stemming from human needs.

    Love exists differently from a potted plant, a chevrolet or your big toe.

    It is a construction of the mind.

    Which is to say NOT objectively at all

    Therefore: LOVE EXISTS.......because.......WE EXIST!

    I hope that answers your question adequately.

  • myelaine
    myelaine

    dear Terry...

    "I hope that answers your question adequately."...

    nope!...God is not a construct of the mind like 'love"...cuz all the love in the "world" isn't capable of over-coming the evil in some men...so given the extreme hated in certain pockets of the "world" there would naturally come a time when hate would over come love......love would be a sitting duck, so to speak...

    God is eternal and God is love...Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. In this the love of God was manifested towardus, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.1 John 4:7-11

    love michelle

    p.s. back away from the keyboard mr. edit happy...lol

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