Cross is a pagan symbol, watchtower is a pagan symbol too

by Noelle 55 Replies latest jw friends

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  reniaa

  I think I made my comparative point quite clearly, I don't have a little watchtower around my neck or worship a shrine watchtower but this thread makes a comparson between a cross and a watchtower.

  So ok so both a catholic and a JW would argue that the cross and the watchtower are just symbols...so weres the difference?

  In usage!

  Idolatory = Worship of a cult image, an object venerated as the representation as a deity

  can we apply this to cross and watchtower? I'll leave that one for you guys to decide.

  but in the end if the watchtower was so important we would never had zion's watchtower changed to Jehovah's witness.

  As to the paganity argument, just google pagan cross and pagan watchtower, The Cross is in a totally different ball park as it was chosen as a direct result of those pagan origins! which just can't be said of Wts's choosing the watchtower symbol as anything more than something of scriptural origin only.

  If you can prove to me that the watchtower was chosen because of it's pagan roots and not its scriptural roots by the WTs than you have a point!
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  BreakingAway

  The Society itself is an Idol.The Governing Body ,FDS and Society are all like a golden calf.
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  diamondblue1974

  I think I made my comparative point quite clearly, I don't have a little watchtower around my neck or worship a shrine watchtower but this thread makes a comparson between a cross and a watchtower.

  So ok so both a catholic and a JW would argue that the cross and the watchtower are just symbols...so weres the difference?

  In usage!

  Idolatory = Worship of a cult image, an object venerated as the representation as a deity

  can we apply this to cross and watchtower? I'll leave that one for you guys to decide.

  As to the paganity argument, just google pagan cross and pagan watchtower, The Cross is on a totally different ball park as it was chosen as a direct result of those pagan origins! which just can't be said of Wts chosing the watchtower symbol as anything more than something of scriptural origin only.

  If you can prove to me that the watchtower chosen because of it's pagan roots and not scriptural roots than you have a point!

  It is the Watchtower Society that insists that they remain seperate from the world and not entertain pagan images yet surprisingly we find pagan origins in the Watchtower symbol itself. CT Russell's grave stone and other evidence gives away that he had masonic connections and it is well established that Freemasonry has Occult links. Furthermore if we consider the time when the Watchtower symbol started to be used, it was a time when occultism and the like were well established and at the fore. It doesnt take a huge mental leap to see that this wouldnt have escaped Russells notice when he made this change given his links with Occultism. Whilst it is speculation, it could be reasonably argued that he used this symbolism to gain credibility in circles where occultism and freemasonry were prominent. The alternative view that suggests he chose it purely from a scripture in the old testament seems a little unlikely given the above. Whilst the Watchtower symbolism does have some pagan origins as already discussed, I think he probably approached his choice of symbol from a Christian Occultist point of view as opposed to from a pagan perspective. The name has never been changed from Zions Watchtower to Jehovahs Witnesses - it was changed from Zions Watchtower to Watchtower Announcing Jehovahs Kingdom thus retaining the same symbolism and origins. Nonetheless this still suggests that the Watchtowers origins were far from seperate from this world. Gary
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  diamondblue1974

  I also forgot to mention that the Watchtower Society is reverred by Jehovahs Witnesses as they often refer to Jehovah and the organisation using the same terminology for example when purely organisational teachings and thoughts are taught as teachings from Jehovah.

  Therefore whilst JW's dont have an altar or wear a symbol round their neck, Jehovahs Witnesses do practice idolatry in one way or another by their unwavering devotion to the society.

  The Society itself is an Idol.The Governing Body ,FDS and Society are all like a golden calf.

  Exactly - you cannot worship Jehovah without the society which in my view demonstrates arrogance on the part of the WTS

  Gary
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  reniaa

  It doesnt take a huge mental leap to see that this wouldnt have escaped Russells notice when he made this change given his links with Occultism. Whilst it is speculation, it could be reasonably argued that he used this symbolism to gain credibility in circles where occultism and freemasonry were prominent. The alternative view that suggests he chose it purely from a scripture in the old testament seems a little unlikely given the above.

  hi diamond blue i'm glad you admit the speculation because it is in my opinion a very big leap, Yes CT Russell liked his pyramids and if he had called it "The Pyramid" and had a big one of them on the front of the magazine we would be having a different conversation and I would be agreeing with you but....

  he used a symbol thats has scriptural back up and there is no evidence of anything other than scriptural basis used in this case and it would be speculating to say otherwise.

  Basically this thread can only say that watchtower may have some obscure pagan roots which can be said of anything pictorially but certainly can bring no connection between this and its usage by ct russell, Unlike the cross which was chosen as a direct result of pagan imagery and can be proved so!
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  Awakened at Gilead

  Several posts have mentioned that the "Watchtower" is a Biblical term. I looked it up and the word appears in the main text of the NWT 4 times. The first time, in Genesis 31:49, it is translated "The Watchtower" as if it were a title (for the heap of witness rocks), but other translations merely use the word "Mizpah". None of the scriptures refers to a religious magazine...

  The last time the word Watchtower in the Bible is the following scripture. It doesn't look good... I reproduce the context:

  (Isaiah 32:9-15) 9 "YOU women who are at ease, rise up, listen to my voice! YOU careless daughters, give ear to my saying! 10 Within a year and some days YOU careless ones will be agitated, because the grape picking will have come to an end [but] no [fruit] gathering will come in. 11 Tremble, YOU women who are at ease! Be agitated, YOU careless ones! Undress and make yourselves naked, and gird [sackcloth] upon the loins. 12 Beat yourselves upon the breasts in lamentation over the desirable fields, over the fruit-bearing vine. 13 Upon the ground of my people merely thorns, spiny bushes come up, for they are upon all the houses of exultation, yes, the highly elated town. 14 For the dwelling tower itself has been forsaken, the very hubbub of the city has been abandoned; O´phel and the watchtower themselves have become bare fields, for time indefinite the exultation of zebras, the pasture of droves; 15 until upon us the spirit is poured out from on high, and the wilderness will have become an orchard, and the orchard itself is accounted as a real forest.

  If you notice, the last time the Bible mentions "The Watchtower", it is in a negative light, and indicates that it will be despoiled and forsaken. If this scripture applies to the current Watchtower society, I look forward to its fulfillment.

  Apologists here, any comments?
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  diamondblue1974

  hi diamond blue i'm glad you admit the speculation because it is in my opinion a very big leap, Yes CT Russell liked his pyramids and if he had called it "The Pyramid" and had a big one of them on the front of the magazine we would be having a different conversation and I would be agreeing with you but....

  he used a symbol thats has scriptural back up and there is no evidence of anything other than scriptural basis used in this case and it would be speculating to say otherwise.

  Basically this thread can only say that watchtower may have some obscure pagan roots which can be said of anything pictorially but certainly can bring no connection between this and its usage by ct russell, Unlike the cross which was chosen as a direct result of pagan imagery and can be proved so!

  CT Russell didnt just 'like his pyramids'; there is more compelling evidence which highlights his masonic and occult links. In her book Occult Theocracy (1933), Edith Star Miller at page 737 confirms CT Russells membership of the Masonic Order.

  The terminology that he used within his publications confirmed that he had more than a basic understanding of the Masonic Orders. His use of the words Grand Master, Grand Architect, Society, Brotherhood, Order, and Initiation (amongst many others) cannot just be coincidental. His other use of symbols gives the game away as well, such as his use of Winged Sun Disk. This symbol being used in Rosicrucianism and Kabbalistic circles.

  Going back to the issue of the Watchtowers usage it cannot just be coincidental that we find its origins within not only paganism but the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn which is an offshoot from the Masonic Order and involves similar works.

  It is a fact that he chose a symbol that was at the time (and still is) widely used by Occultists and those involved in Gardenarian Witchcraft and Western Mystery Traditions including the Golden Dawn. The fact that he alludes to some old testament scripture is more convenient than factual.

  You seem to jump on my speculations and apparent objectivity as an indication that there is no merit in my contention - First of all I only speculated that he used the symbols to gain credibility. As for the fact that he used such symbols in the manner he did and at the time he did and within the environment he did, this isnt speculation but is based upon compelling evidence.
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  Awakened at Gilead

  Renaia: Idolatory = Worship of a cult image, an object venerated as the representation as a deity

  can we apply this to cross and watchtower? I'll leave that one for you guys to decide.

  Here's my 2 cents: Many brothers use WT symbols on lapel buttons on their jackets. While they will say that this is not worship, but rather to serve as JW identification, many cross bearing people will agree that they wear a cross to identify themselves as Christian, or even just as a decoration. I'm thinking about waering a cross, just so that I can be identified NOT as a JW.

  In your book "wearing" = "worship"? The standard should be applied equally...

  A@G (of the crosswearing wannabe so I'm not mistaken for a JW class)
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  Magick

  
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  BreakingAway

  and it would be speculating to say otherwise.

  And we all know how much the WT hates speculation ! Which is why I'm speculating right now as I write this....and it feels so GOOD !

  Sometimes I speculate twice in one day....to release all that pent-up speculation.