Question about Conscience matter

by Iwonder17 18 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Iwonder17
    Iwonder17

    Ok, I will keep this breif.

    I have always had a problem with Conscience matter's and here is my reasoning. Whenever a Conscience matter issue comes up, they always end with a comment something like "whatever your Conscience allows you to do" and you will answer to god for your actions.

    I believe there is no such of a thing as a Conscience matter for the following reasons:

    1) If there was a Conscience matter posed to Jesus, what side of the issue would he choose? ( I would assume, the conservitive side )

    2) If during your life you were faced with 100 Conscience matter, and you always choose the "liberial" side of the issue, would you be more or less likely to gain entry into paradise?

    3) If during your life you were faced with 100 Conscience matter, and you always choose the "liberial" side of the issue, and the elders were aware of this, would you ever be appointed as a MS or elder?

    Tell me what you think.... I am a very black and white kind of person and I have a tough time with Conscience matters. I would prefer that the is just a rule and you wither follow it or not.

  • james_woods
    james_woods

    Well, if you follow that "black & white" rule thing to the letter - then, you are in effect, allowing somebody else (like the Witness Governing Body or Elders) to make all your decisions for you. None are left to you just for yourself.

    Let's say that I like to drive a big diesel SUV. My neighbor Bob likes to drive one of those eco-friendly hybrids. My other neighbor Mario is still holding onto his vintage Ferrari.

    Mitigating this might be: I use biodiesel in the SUV. Mario only drives his 275GTB4 ( 11mpg) to a car show once a year. Bob is a long distance commuter and actually uses more gas than any of us.

    Do you want Al Gore (environmental version of the Governing Body, if he got his way) to come in and just legislate what all three of us do in so-called black and white?

    Not me.

    James

    BTW - welcome to the board. We are mostly ex-JW here and have had quite enough of having our conscious thought dictated to us!

  • Terry
    Terry

    When you confer with "yourself", with what you know, with what matters to you personally--you are demonstrating CONSCIENCE.

    If you are an individual your identity stems from how you think and act together as a whole in harmony.

    That is what "integrity" is: being whole with thinking and doing. No contradictions.

    Matters of Conscience are deeply personal and nobody can TELL YOU how to act in your own best interests because they can't have identical values as you.

    Your Life--your very own life--is what gives value to everything else. Your life is different from other people's life. Your family is not their family. Your economic situation is not theirs, etc.

    The Watchtower control freaks want to pretend (and want you to join them in pretending) there is no contradiction between them telling you exactly what to do (and what NOT to do) and your arriving at that conclusion on your own.

    But, this is a lie. We know this because doing things THIER WAY often destroys something or somebody you love or removes a value from your life which is essential to your well-being.

    A JEHOVAH'S WITNESS cannot possess a CONSCIENCE. Why?

    JW's are not individuals, don't possess personal identity apart from the group-think and aren't allowed to differentiate without penalty.

    Instead of CONSCIENCE, JW's have conditioned responses programmed by their leaders.

    The contradiction between your own life and the public life of a JW destroys conscience and creates a false double-life instead.

    There are no PERSONAL lives allowed in a cult. No conscience can function.

  • Casper
    Casper

    Welcome to JWD, Iwonder....

    They may call it a "Conscience Matter"... but in reality... they mean "Don't Do It"...

    Cas

  • Octarine Prince
    Octarine Prince

    Yep.

    They say: "Conscience Matter," but they really mean: "This is something we
    can't get away with directly telling you the course we want you to take,
    but we will strongly hint at it, and harass and penalize you if you take
    the other course."

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    I am going to comment according to the warped standards of WTS.

    A conscience matter, that means the WTS doesn't want to tell you what to do,
    but wants to lead you to their feelings on the matter.

    They say that it is a conscience matter when the Bible is silent on something,
    but they are constantly saying things that are beyond what the Bible says.

    There are virtually unlimited things that are a conscience matter, but let's plug
    some in here to address #3 (If during your life you were faced with 100 Conscience
    matter, and you always choose the "liberial" side of the issue, and the elders were
    aware of this, would you ever be appointed as a MS or elder? )
    We won't even make it a liberal/conservative thing.

    A young guy decides to go to college and get a degree in philosophy. He decides
    to buy a sportscar after he lands an excellent job. He works less than 40 hours a
    week so he can attend all meetings and get out in the ministry. He can do that
    because his degree allows him to earn enough money.

    He marries a regular publisher who gets over 10 hours a month. Instead of pioneering,
    she gets a part-time job, quits that to raise 5 children. They study with all 5 children.
    He keeps buying sportscars. He doesn't need a big car for the family because they walk
    to the KH with the strollers. Even though he makes time for field service, he puts in
    11 hours a month, never takes an additional day off from work to preach with the circuit
    overseer during his visit, just gets out on the weekend. He vacations every year during the
    District Convention to attend where his sickly grandparents live in Florida. He goes to
    the DC with them, never to his own.

    He takes turns missing meetings when the kids are sick. That doesn't happen that
    often, but he will send the wife with the other kids just as often as she will send him
    when she stays home with the sick one. He doesn't spank his kids but they are fairly
    well behaved. He doesn't have them become regular publishers unless they want to,
    and none of them do, but they come along in service semi-regularly. They are not on
    the school, as they are struggling with secular school and homework, so he doesn't want
    to add pressure to them.

    I could go on and on. He's a great guy. Will he ever be appointed an elder or MS? It
    depends. Most BOE will say "All you gotta do is get a minivan or at least a 4-door car."
    Some will overlook the car because he writes a check for $300 every month and puts it
    in the contribution box.

    No BOE would say that he is a great example, but they just look at the field service being
    above the national average and the contributions he makes. Some BOE would never even
    consider him because his kids are not on the TMS or reg. publishers. Some would prefer
    to see him at every meeting and not the wife when the kids are sick. It's not really about
    her needs, it's about being available to give talks.

    Here's how the discussion of this brother would go:
    "Well, he went to college when the clear message had changed that this could drag him
    away from the truth. He didn't marry an extremely spiritual woman. They have the means
    to support her pioneering, yet she doesn't do it. Still, they are doing better at getting out
    than many others. We never see him at the conventions, so he never volunteers there."

    There would be more, but you get the idea. He's done nothing wrong. All conscience
    matters on what he should do or did. Do you realize that the rest of the decision is based
    mostly on whether the brothers like him? Not on any of this? He gets the national average
    and contributes money at the Hall. The rest is swayed by whether he is well-liked.
    Forget the rest.

    If they don't like him, the sportscar or the kids not being publishers or the wife not
    pioneering or visibility at the hall or at DC will be issues. He's doing better than most elders
    already, but they will focus on shortcomings because he never buys them lunch at the end of
    a fruitful Saturday in the field, or he never invites the elders to play golf with him.

    If he is regularly generous to the elders, gives the C.O. a green handshake as he treats to
    dinner every other visit, and never lets the sportscar be seen, but keeps it in the garage,
    and is well-liked, HE IS IN. WTS doesn't really believe in conscience matters on that.

    Likewise on everything else. They want you to take blood fractions, but they cannot tell you
    to. Just don't take whole blood. They want you to totally shun DF'ed ones, but let it be your
    idea. Don't go to R-rated movies or rock concerts. Don't learn things that come from
    scholarly ones who doubt the validity of anything WTS teaches, at least don't admit you
    learned them.

  • babygirl75
    babygirl75
    They say: "Conscience Matter," but they really mean: "This is something we
    can't get away with directly telling you the course we want you to take,
    but we will strongly hint at it, and harass and penalize you if you take
    the other course."

    And we have setup Liasson's & Committee's to come in and make these "conscience" decisions for you. (blood issue in hospital for example)

  • james_woods
    james_woods

    Casper - you have that right. They leave nothing to actual conscience, even if they say they do.

    What the JW do is also to avoid legal and moral issues by stating that this or that is a "conscience matter", secretly defaming those that do not choose their "christian thing", but they avoid the legal stigma of saying that the society ordered them to do it.

    This was very useful during the draft issue days of the Vietnam War. There were actual instructions to young guys of draft age like myself to make it very clear to the draft board that "we were acting on our own conscience, and that the WTS had NOT told us to make this choice." It was, of course, a total lie - we would have been instantly Disassociated (note - not Disfellowshipped) if we did not make the expected choice.

    DA was exactly the same as DF, except for their pseudo-legal babble of kingdom jargon.

  • babygirl75
    babygirl75

    Oh, by the way....Welcome to the site!!!

  • Casper
    Casper

    What the JW do is also to avoid legal and moral issues by stating that this or that is a "conscience matter", secretly defaming those that do not choose their "christian thing", but they avoid the legal stigma of saying that the society ordered them to do it.

    James,

    So true.... Good point...

    Cas

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