Do you believe in the Deity of Christ? (page 4)

I suppose so but that begs the question of what makes a trintiarian interpretation more right/correct than a non-trinitarian to the point of denying salvation for not agreeing?

For you see your professed Godhead as clearly as I see a Son separate from his father.......yet I do not believe you and I must agree on this matter for you to be 'saved'.

Both of our 'interpretations' weren't formally spoken in unity until near 300 years after Jesus death ......Satan even managed to get us to slaughter each other over this disagreement...

If it is a 'must believe' than what about those lesser educated Xians living before the 300s and those who were living in far off lands in that period and died before being told of this 'must believe' matter......are they denied salavation too?

Are we suppose to squabble over details and bring division or focus on the overall message of Christ and be united?

Why stop there, why not make absolute beliefs for all Xians..... oh wait that has been done before and is being done now by hiearchical organization like the RCC and WTS.

Believe me I would love for us to come to a nice mutual ground on this matter because the division keeps many JWs and ExJWs from fellowship...

garyneal

I suppose so but that begs the question of what makes a trintiarian interpretation more right/correct than a non-trinitarian to the point of denying salvation for not agreeing?

In regards to the trinity, I don't think it matters whether one believes in it or not. I think simply the deity of Jesus is a required belief but I have been known to be wrong. According to Brother Dan, Raymond Franz believes in the deity of Christ.

For you see your professed Godhead as clearly as I see a Son separate from his father.......

The trinity teaches that the Son and the Father are seperate people. The Jehovah's Witnesses routinely use the old straw man argument by arguing against modalism. Unfortunately, too many trinitarians do not really understand the orthodox teaching of the trinity, hence the reason why it seems so 'easy' to convert them to arianism.

UnDisfellowshipped

GaryNeal!

Outstanding post!

I could not have said it better myself.

It is belief in the Deity of Christ that is a salvation issue, because if a person does not come to the actual Jesus who died for them, but instead comes to a "false christ" then you're in trouble.

The Trinity is important, but understanding all about God and His Triune Nature is not what Jesus said was required for saving faith.

Jesus did say, however, "If you do not believe that I am He [or, the One that I claim to be], you will die in your sins." (John 8:24)

garyneal

Thanks UnDisfellowshipped.

Yknot, I apologise if I came on too strong concerning this. I only felt the need to refute what you said here:

(shakes head, smiles at knowing it is far easier to convert a trinitarian to our belief versus the other way around;-)

I think you are a terrific person and I can see how it would seem easier to convert people to the arianism belief than the other way around. I remember when my wife's dad tried to explain to me how it is wrong to think that Jesus is God. All I remember thinking at the time was, Jehovah's Witnesses think so three dimensionally bringing God down to our level and all.

The problem with most trinitarians is whenever they try to explain it, they revert to arguments like, "Well, I am Sally the mom, Sally the wife, and Sally the aunt, etc." That's modalism.

Again, I would agree that many versus used by trinitarians to support their beliefs can be interpreted either way but I do believe that the Deity of Jesus Christ is hard to refute.

At any rate, peace to you.

Oh, and to anyone who wishes to answer. What is the difference between divinity and deity?

garyneal

I believe the brain washed cultists in this case are teaching 1+1+1=1.

I remember reading this on RBC ministries website (the site that hosts the Daily Bread devotionals) concerning cults and how to identify one. Along with other things, they make the following statement:

A group that denies such basic doctrines as the Trinity, the deity of Christ, the reality of a bodily resurrection, and salvation by grace alone through faith in Christ is clearly a cult.

Now, I can't say that I agree with this because that would mean that other religious faiths outside of Christianity along with people of no faith would belong to cults in this case. I prefer Steve Hassan's definition of cults.

yknot

Gary

I can appreciate your satisfaction in your trinitarian belief.

Most trintiarian Xians I have met at my hubby's church and within my 'worldly associations' are less seated in trinity's absoluteness mostly because they really don't understand their beliefs beyond that is what they were told in their church.... this is especially true when I make it clear I am not trying to convert them to the WTS.

As for John 20:28..... it can be spun as the WTS does as an expression of shock or even revert back to Isa 9:6 'mighty god' but as Arians point out not 'almighty god.

Deity/divine.....that discussion becomes about co-equal versus inferior between arians and trinitarians

____________

for the point of conversation with your wife, here is the JW Reasoning Book response to John 20:28

*** rs p. 213 Jesus Christ ***
Does Thomas’ exclamation at John 20:28 prove that Jesus is truly God?
John 20:28 (RS) reads: “Thomas answered him, ‘My Lord and my God!’”
There is no objection to referring to Jesus as “God,” if this is what Thomas had in mind. Such would be in harmony with Jesus’ own quotation from the Psalms in which powerful men, judges, were addressed as “gods.” (John 10:34, 35, RS; Ps. 82:1-6) Of course, Christ occupies a position far higher than such men. Because of the uniqueness of his position in relation to Jehovah, at John 1:18 (NW) Jesus is referred to as “the only-begotten god.” (See also Ro, By.) Isaiah 9:6 (RS) also prophetically describes Jesus as “Mighty God,” but not as the Almighty God. All of this is in harmony with Jesus’ being described as “a god,” or “divine,” at John 1:1 (NW, AT).

The context helps us to draw the right conclusion from this. Shortly before Jesus’ death, Thomas had heard Jesus’ prayer in which he addressed his Father as “the only true God.” (John 17:3, RS) After Jesus’ resurrection Jesus had sent a message to his apostles, including Thomas, in which he had said: “I am ascending . . . to my God and your God.” (John 20:17, RS) After recording what Thomas said when he actually saw and touched the resurrected Christ, the apostle John stated: “These are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.” (John 20:31, RS) So, if anyone has concluded from Thomas’ exclamation that Jesus is himself “the only true God” or that Jesus is a Trinitarian “God the Son,” he needs to look again at what Jesus himself said (vs. 17) and at the conclusion that is clearly stated by the apostle John (vs. 31).

Here is one arian presentation on jesus being divine too via Robert Wagoner (damn I feel like 'Alice-Rachel now)

Is Jesus "Divine"?-- Arian response

Yes, on the strength of Col 2:9 and Heb 1:3. However, there is no specific scripture which uses the word "divine" (Greek theios) for Jesus. The word appears three times; Acts 17:29, 2 Pet 1:3,4. The first two refer to Go d, the third says the church becomes "partakers of the divine nature." In the latter sense, however defined, Jesus would have to be included.

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/grdebate.html

Do you believe in the Deity of Christ?

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