Does Wearing Your Nations Uniform Automatically Ensure a High Moral Ground?

by hillary_step 45 Replies latest jw friends

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    I realize that the contents of this thread may enflame the passions of those on all sides of the House. If your sensibilities are easily damaged, you take yourself to seriously, or your humor is wanting, then be warned this may not be the thread for you.

    I have been reading with interest a thread on this Board today that is discussing the treatment of US veterans. I have noticed that when such subjects are discussed there is an automatic assumption that those who don the uniforms of their respective nations, they somehow are automatically walking on a higher moral ground.

    I find it all the more puzzling that those who cry the loudest for 'special' treatment for soldiers, and by special I mean as compared to the rest of the working masses, seem to be of an Republican bent. I note this as personal rather than community responsibility seems to list high on such peoples priorities, except when it comes to soldiering.

    When a person puts on the uniform and agrees to fight for his or her nation, they have taken a personal philosophical position, which means that surely they must take personal responsibility for their actions and choices. This is one reason that I have absolutely no interest in what Mccain survived as POW, he is no more in love with the US than the bus driver on Broadway.

    I am not a pacifist, as I think some wars walk on more moral ground than others. It is no secret that I have been opposed to the invasion of Iraq from day one and have never changed my position, which cannot be said for numerous persons on this Board five or six years ago. It is not a war that was ever attached to a position of morality. It is a war that were I American and drafted I would have taken part in, because from my own philosophic and political position it is a war fought for a sinister agenda, to serve the few.

    I lost all four of my grandparents on one sunny day in 1944. They were executed by German Soldiers in retaliation for partisan activity which had left an armoured vehicle and its contents dead, but I would have fought in this war only from principle, not from revenge or a hatred of Germany at its people. I recall reading in Susan Brownmiller's classic book on rape, 'Against Our Will', about two Baptist's who refused to take up the draft and head out to Saigon and were imprisoned. One of them was repeatedly raped every day for two years by criminals who thought them 'cowards' and easy targets. When interviewed at the end of his sentence the young man said he would prefer to endure what bhe had for another two years than fight in what he viewed was an immoral war. The criminal actually thought that they had a higher moral ground because they would have taken up arms and fought!

    What this young man endured is real courage that matches anything done on a battlefield. I suspect that this young man probably had to pay for his own pyschiatrist. He should be given the Medal Of Honour.

    The Armed Forces are a professional body, but no more professional than is doctoring, keeping clean our waters, maintaining our electricity supply, or training air traffic controllers to keep our skies safe.

    When soldiers left for Vietnam the same jingoism followed them. When they returned they were often met by disgust from these same people at the fact that they had 'lost' another unfortunate war that was waged morally suspect grounds. Now, just a few people admit to voting for President Bush, very few acknowledge that Viet Nam was anything but a debacle. Surely this stands as a moral example of demanding personal responsibility for our own decisions, especially those that involve life and death.

    Why do many of us, and this from all nations, feel that once a person dons a uniform and survives boot camp they are somehow automatically granted a morally superior position in society? Governments make mistakes, often huge mistakes, that should preclude this automatic assumption.

    HS

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    I realize that the contents of this thread may enflame the passions of those on all sides of the House.

    Then I propose we all get married before we undertake this :ahem: grave discussion.

  • hillbilly
    hillbilly

    service to the military does not make one more moral than anybody else. Having a sense of Duty and following through on that Duty should be honored and respected... and if you object and pay the fines or penalty your government asks you should be respected also... but I would not expect pensions and benefits for civil disobedience to be in order.

    Vietnam era... a bunch of young guys (and women) who answered the call.. and a bunch of idealistic people who were still trying to figure out the Beat thing..... classic case of two worlds on a collision course. Young men who were giving all spit on by those with a ideological agenda...you tell me who was morally superior in that.

    It's easy to sit here and judge those who answered the call to arms in the 60's. It's even easier to see how the protesters have held up. Every Vietnam vet I have ever met would go again if asked... and every hippy out there ended up stoned for life or living as a soccer mommy with a Volvo.

    I probably am not smart enough to really understand the point of your posting Hillary... but I will say what I feel.

    Hill

  • restrangled
    restrangled

    Hillery, I read with rapt interest your topic, and agree with much of what you said.

    I am an Independent voter, and the last time I voted Republican was for Reagan. I was denied voting rights in Florida twice. Both times voting Democratic. I won't go into the first time but the second time I was overseas and the Democrats did not get the Ballot sent as promised so I was denied a vote.

    Getting beyond that, I would like to address a few of your statements and/or assumptions.

    I find it all the more puzzling that those who cry the loudest for 'special' treatment for soldiers, and by special I mean as compared to the rest of the working masses, seem to be of an Republican bent. I note this as personal rather than community responsibility seems to list high on such peoples priorities, except when it comes to soldiering.

    I don't quite understand that statement as I plan to vote Democratic. If anyone puts their lives on the line at low pay for their country, ( and yes it is low pay) I believe they deserve special treatement. I have 2 sons at prime military age who were recruited non stop out of high school. I told every recuriter don't they dare try to contact my sons again....there was no way I was giving them up for this hideous, ridiculous war. They quickly got the message but are still sending crapola by mail, which I promptly throw in the trash.

    When a person puts on the uniform and agrees to fight for his or her nation, they have taken a personal philosophical position, which means that surely they must take personal responsibility for their actions and choices. This is one reason that I have absolutely no interest in what Mccain survived as POW, he is no more in love with the US than the bus driver on Broadway.

    I think many of these young people were influenced by the fervor and hysteria of 9/11, perpetuated by this administration. They thought they were defending the US against an enemy they could quickly take care of. The Bush admin. lied, and very quickly put up the "Mission Accomplished" BS...giving the impression this all was almost over. Now here they are on their 3rd rounds in Iraq.

    WW2 and Vietnam....the poor fellows had no chance. they were drafted.

    I lost all four of my grandparents on one sunny day in 1944. They were executed by German Soldiers in retaliation for partisan activity which had left an armoured vehicle and its contents dead, but I would have fought in this war only from principle, not from revenge or a hatred of Germany at its people.

    I am sorry about your grandparents. So many innocent, good people died.

    But do you really Know that you would have fought that war from only principle and not revenge? Had you witnessed your grandparents dieing at the time, you might have felt very differently. There is no way to tell, you might be talking a very different story.

    Why do many of us, and this from all nations, feel that once a person dons a uniform and survives boot camp they are somehow automatically granted a morally superior position in society? Governments make mistakes, often huge mistakes, that should preclude this automatic assumption.

    Do I feel as you have stated above. NO! My relatives did not just don a uniform and survive bootcamp. They were forced into wars, served in combat, and died early. My father-in-law also was POW and almost starved to death under the Japanese. My Great, great Grandfather served under Sherman in the Civil War.........all men drafted.

    Yes governments make huge mistakes, and their wars are some of the biggest, so it is their obligation to make sure their military is taken care whether a mistake or not!

    r.

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    Hillbilly,

    I probably am not smart enough to really understand the point of your posting Hillary... but I will say what I feel.

    Well, that is not the case, as not only did you understand it, but stated your position on the issue. I suppose I ought to remind you of your own post, just in case you missed it. ;)

    service to the military does not make one more moral than anybody else.

    In this we can both agree.

    It's easy to sit here and judge those who answered the call to arms in the 60's. It's even easier to see how the protesters have held up. Every Vietnam vet I have ever met would go again if asked... and every hippy out there ended up stoned for life or living as a soccer mommy with a Volvo.

    However, your attachment to a cliched vision of the US in the 60's and onward is rather worrying. Do you actually believe what you wrote above?

    HS

  • yknot
    yknot

    Not necessarily on 'higer moral grounds' but I do recognize the diference between them and me...

    Regardless on the motivation of enlisting....the choice of enlisting means a willingness to sacrifice their life.

    As a civilain....I am a bit iffy on the subject....

    Therefor I respect that their choice, their commitment, and their service has benefitted me without my taking any risks.....

    I am grateful.

  • hillbilly
    hillbilly

    However, your attachment to a cliched vision of the US in the 60's and onward is rather worrying. Do you actually believe what you wrote above?

    Based on the dozens of people from either group I have personal contact with here in the states, yes. Reads like it's painted with a broad brush, but thats my experience. Most of the ex radical folks I have met get pretty embarassed about it too.

    You tell me ...how may SDA, Weather Underground, Black Panthers or individuals who esposed those ideologies do you know who lived through the 70's or didnt end up in the button down world? I cant think of many. The peace love and dope bunch checked in and cashed out... hell old hippies are the only folks who can afford Crosby Stills and Nash tickets anymore.

    Hill

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    HS..Obviously not every war is fought for the right reasons..But..A soldier fights where he is sent..Some take advantage of their position of power and engage in criminal acts..These criminals,in soldiers uniforms,deserve no admiration..........The ones that killed your grandparents,if their still alive..Deserve a bullet in the head..I don`t care how old they are now..........For the soldier who trys to to the right thing in a bad situation..I have sympathy for them..........Like you,I don`t agree with the war in Iraq..We have seen some soldiers behaving despicably there.....Others are just trying to do their job..I have sympathy for them.............As for the administration that sent them there..They deserve to answer to a international court of law,if their own country cannot keep them in check................ Clint Eastwood...OUTLAW

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    Hi Outlaw,

    For the soldier who trys to to the right thing in a bad situation..I have sympathy for them

    As do I, and I understand the needs of the career soldier, who has made his choices . My puzzlement is about the aura that surrounds soldiers of all nations at all times. 'He's over there fighting for his country, and what are you doing?', seems to have more moral superiority imbued in it in many peoples minds than it should imo. Sometimes the greater moral ground is surely in the hands of the person who refuses to fight when a war is not justified?

    This is a philosophic issue that goes beyond individual nations and is attached like a boil on the arse of a nationalistic thinker. It is such thinking that allows leaders to so easily manipulate the thinking of the masses.

    ...There's a shadow on the faces
    Of the men who fan the flame
    Of the wars that are fought in places
    We can't even say the name...

    HS

  • stillajwexelder
    stillajwexelder

    soldiers die and fight in wars

    Generals direct the war

    Politicians take the credit for war

    Scientists , engineers and technicians build society

    Artists (muicians etc) enrich society

    Lawyers are an evil necessity

    That is the way it has been for millenia. It is why I choose to be aa scientist.

    YOU ARE OF COURSE CORRECT HS - but there is fuckall you and I can do about it

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