by jstalin 18 Replies latest social current
But giving up democratic control of our country to be ruled over by some unelected Germans who want to build a European army
Is that what you believe? I also heard that the anti-european campaign also had posters "Do you want a micro chip in your children?" Those people are just xenophobic. And obviously you have an issues with Germans.
I guess that it is the price for democracy that ignorant people can put their thumb up or down.
This was a very retrograde step imo. I am very pro EU and the USA. A strong Europe is a good thing. Once again a good story is being masked by a lot poor and uninformed reprorting.
How many here have studied EU law? Well i have, and yes some of it is byzantine, but the point of the EU is to bind nations closer together so they are economically and poiltically stopped from having another world war. Guess what, it is working. I enjoy being a European, my kids have been all over Europe.
I do not want any another war like the last, my dad was there on DDay and it was awful. Ge saw a concentration camp - unspeakable.
So what if we have some beaurocracy, isn't it worth it for the ends here do justify the means
Regards David
s
I say we joint the United Federation of Planets and be done with it.
The history of the EU shows clearly why citizens should not trust it one iota - from the start the elite political class has misled the populations about the scope of the - original Community and they still do now with the Union. War has not been prevented by the EUs existence.
The example of Yugoslavia comes to my mind - a disparate group held together (with success) by a dictator until it fragmented away as national groups demanded freedom and independence - and violence followed - I can foresee the EU facing that sort of problem in 50 - 100 years as the unique peoples realise what has been stolen from them and want their independence. The Irish people won independence the hard way and it seems they are waking to the fact that by the back door the EU is stealing it - with national vetos removed - a court with untrammeled authority - well done the Irish! You have every reason to vote NO - no doubt the politicians will ignore this democratic act as they will continue on regardless - the elite will have thier way supported in the main by the press.
In the UK Brown would not dare to hold a vote as it is conceivable that he would be hammered by a resounding NO vote - people want their independence - yes - economic cooperation - but not ever closer political union with the larger states calling the tune.
Is that what you believe? I also heard that the anti-european campaign also had posters "Do you want a micro chip in your children?" Those people are just xenophobic. And obviously you have an issues with Germans.
I guess that it is the price for democracy that ignorant people can put their thumb up or down.
I'm not ignorant at all on these issues. You're putting up a strawman argument there my friend with the microchip nonsense. Did the German goverment not have a referendum because they don't want their ignorant citizens to have a voice in this huge decision?
I have no issues with the German people, or any other European people. My grandfather was German. And I am not anti-european. As I said, the economic union has been very successful for everyone involved. This specific treaty that was attempted to be forced on everyone WITHOUT A VOTE had specific problems. Its vauge wording left it open to interpretation. That interpretation would be done by the European courts. They could decide later what the treaty means after everyone had already signed up to it.
The German and French governments are very open about their goals for the future of Europe. These goals include a Euorpean army and a much stronger central government. One of the first things they want to change is to control the corporate tax rates for all countries in the union. No, they don't want to microchip our children (as far as I know). Yes there was some scare mongering being done during the campaign like you mentioned above. But this was happening on BOTH sides of the debate. The YES side said that Ireland would forever pay for our rejection of this treaty and we may even be kicked out of europe. Neither side was totally honest.
The problem is that Europe is very culturally diverse. Under this treaty all countries would basically get there rules from whatever the largest countries decide upon. You're in Germany so this doesn't seem like a bad idea to you. But the citizens of the small countries would completely lose our voice. I don't have a problem with the German people, but I do have a problem putitng my trust in German politicians to be looking out for the welfare of Irish citizens. Hell we can't even trust our own politicians to look after us!
There were legitimate reasons to not like this treaty. It's not right to say that everyone who rejected it was an ignorant nationalistic xenophobe.
This was my first experience of voting too! I was so excited by the prospect. I'm so glad the no vote won.
David,
The following observation is generally attributed to Benjamin Franklin, "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Think about it.
Forscher
There were legitimate reasons to not like this treaty. It's not right to say that everyone who rejected it was an ignorant nationalistic xenophobe.
Quite possibly you are correct, unfortunately the facts are that if there were to be a referendum on pulling out of europe all together then the 'no' crowd would win the day. The 'no' crowd are a bunch of xenophobic nationalists who distrust everything about europe and that view has a lot of popular support. In my view the european union has done a very poor job in getting over to people what they do to improve peoples lives and the economic benefits of remaining in europe.
In the UK the parties arguing for referendum on europe have only one goal and that is to remove us from europe, to pretend that it is only a question of preventing the loss of independance or a question of individual european policies is to mask the true intent of UKIP, I wonder if it is any different in Ireland.
The sooner pro-europeans wake up to the fact that they have not won any significant public support the better.
Quite possibly you are correct, unfortunately the facts are that if there were to be a referendum on pulling out of europe all together then the 'no' crowd would win the day.
There are a few hard-core anti-europeans here, but they are a very small minority. A referendum to pull out of the union would have about 2% vote here I would suspect. Ireland has prospered quite a bit from the EU partnership, and everyone knows it. We just don't see the need to give them any MORE power. Things are working good as they are. If it's not broke, don't fix it.
