Modern Bibles - Atonement - Part VI

by Perry 33 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Perry
    Perry
    In spite of its problems, I like the KJV. It was well done for its day. You're doing a disservice by casting such sweeping doubts about "Modern Bibles"

    With all due respect Deputy Dog , I don't see how your examples rise to the level of doctrinal watering down or ambivilence like the examples I've provided at the beginning of this thread on Atonement.

    When Rome couldn't kill all the Christians in the first couple of centuries, the State and the "Church" merged, thus violating the radical vision of separation of Church and State that Jesus outlined in a very simple statement of paying caesars things to caesar, and God's things to God. At that time society became sacral and not composite. Not until the emergence of the United States did Christ's vision again become a reality.

    When the Roman society became sacral instead of composit....things got muddied. To be a Christian became geographic (living in a Roman province) instead of personal. When that change occured, the number of actual Christians didn't change, but the number of geographic Christians did.

    The Donatists were the first to compalin and rebel against this as early as the 3rd century. They were of course persecuted. The different readings in the minority texts and the majority texts became extremely important to determine what was and what was not a Christian.

    For the catholics, they promoted the sacraments, and the real flesh and the real blood of Christ being injested by the believer, along with ritual, praying to saints etc. Ironically, when Roman society became monolithic, then worshipping the traditional gods was then illegal. In other words, less freedom for all, not more.

    For the born again believer, it just meant more persecution. The inquisitor would show up and ask if you believed in the transsubstatiation and then pronounce you a heretic if you could not answer in the affirmative. The catholics taught a works based salvation and a progressive salvation.

    The specific readings at the beginning of this thread leaves the door of interpretation open for Catholic teaching. Also, we are well aware that these readings strengthen the spin on the Ransom doctrine by the WT many centuries later as well.

    Salvation by faith alone, in Christ substituting for us...taking OUR punishment is biblical and none other.

    Here's a You Tube on the Subject:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rx8PdvOELvY

    You're doing a disservice by casting such sweeping doubts about "Modern Bibles"

    I don't see it that way DD. The Majority readings became very important in determining what did and did not constitute a Christian for many hundreds of years until the Reformation.

    Now, with the proliferation of modern bibles, based on the same erroneous texts used centuries before, history is repeating itself. Today, sodomites are on bible translating committies and are again watering down the Word. Many "Christians" believe sodomy to be within God's will based on those new readings. Many apologetic threads dealing with "Christian Sodomy" have been offered right here on this board.

    They are shocking. No, not the sin. In the end, they're all pretty much the same. The heretical teachings on this subject are what is shocking. I usually have nothing personal against anyone engaging in any act that God says is wrong.

    But, I parrallel the rise of Secular Humanism (philosophy/religion), including its sodomite component with the rise of the RCC in the 4th century. The brave new world we are heading into is no longer a composite society originally fostered by Jesus. It is monolithic, and abusive and totalatarian.

    The new litmus test for orthodoxy will not be Christ's Real Presence but will be things like this:

    http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=61342 Fail the test, and you are a heretic to the new blend of religion and state..... hence, subject to your property being confiscated and worse.

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog
    With all due respect Deputy Dog , I don't see how your examples rise to the level of doctrinal watering down or ambivilence like the examples I've provided at the beginning of this thread on Atonement.

    I see, so the Deity of Christ is no big deal to you?

  • AllTimeJeff
    AllTimeJeff

    Perry

    I will let our answers speak for themselves at this point on sin and atonement. I will maintain that your answers resemble metaphyiscal hogwash, talking about concepts such as sin and death and god as if they have ever been proved and of which you or anyone else posess Polaroids of. You assume too many facts to be evidence when they simply are not. Let me get to the 3 of the biggest reasons why I reject both sin and the need for the blood sacrifice of a human as explained by Christians in general.

    1. The account of Adam and Eve is illogical, raises more questions then it answers, and frankly paints God as very cruel. I reject that billions of people are suffering and being ignored by god because our "first parents" ate some fruit that belonged to god. The punishment does not fit the crime (if true.) If that is sin, then I blame god, not Adam and Eve.
    2. While I do believe Jesus was a real man who walked the earth, I reject that he was born of a virgin and performed miracles. I do think as a religous leader he was executed by impalement, as was the Roman custom, but I do not believe that he miraculously rose on the 3rd day. As I am unable (like you) to know what happens after we die with any certainty, if you would like to believe that Jesus is still alive, be my guest. I am comfortable and satisfied that Jesus, as great a man as he apparantly was, is simply a very famous, very dead, historical person of note.
    3. I reject entirely the symbolic drama that the OT painst through animal sacrifices and the NT paints through Jesus that blood must be spilled to cover over anyones sin, let alone our "first parents. (see point #1,) This isn't just. Period.

    You might find it interesting to know about me that I consider myself raised with a Judeo/Christian ethic. I think that much of what is attributed to Jesus as to what he said is very healthy and I try to live by some of his teachings, but only because they are fair and make sense. I reject what is illoigcal and doesn't make sense.

    As for why I referred to you as a bigot, it was because of the picture that you posted and the caption you put above it. The picture itself not only is offensive to the vast majority of the gay community, (as if most of them would outrightly try to offend thiests) but there can be only one reason to put such hateful language and pictures on this or any forum, and that is to prejudice (which means to "pre judge") people against homosexuals. Your use of the word "Sodomites" is similarly used by fundamentalists to get people to stay in a prejudiced state of mind against gays and lesbians. As for the definition of a bigot, here is why I called you this.

    American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This

    bigĀ·ot Audio Help (big'?t) Pronunciation Key
    n. One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

    I think you are intolerant of homosexuals, and the way you talk about them promotes discriminatroy and intolerant behavior against them. Whether or not you would personally join in such activities doesn't matter. Of course, if you were to make a statement that you think society should accept homosexuals and treat them as other people, I would be moved to change my mind and retract that statement.

    Lastly, while I find your overall tone a bit judgemental, I appreciate your sharing your opinion on god and whether or not you think he will destroy me for not believing as you. Thanks!

    PS I know your threads concern modern bibles and their translation. Personally, I find the need for this argument very damning in the first place against the bible as an inspired record. It shouldn't need to be this complicated. But the subject themselves shoudld come under scrutiny, no matter how they are translated.

  • trevor
    trevor

    Definition of Bigot: Unreasonably prejudiced and intolerant.

    Say no more!

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