by tartarus 36 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Proof is never needed to have faith, just a desire to believe in something unseen.
Once proof is provided faith is not needed. As the Christian requirement for salvation is faith, proof is the enemy because it makes faith redundant.
Fortunately for Christians there is no proof for their beliefs so faith is free to flourish.
Lol Trevor. That was entertaining.
Is it not possible to have faith and then have proof?
If you already have proof, then you can't have faith. (In truth, there is no need for faith.)
But if you have faith, proof poses no problem.
Proof doesn't render faith redundant, it just verifies what those with faith already believed.
It's just that some "proof" is readily available and some "proof" will be available in the future.
I remember I had a conversation after I became inactive. The elder was eager to talk as I initiated the contact. I talked about exact same thing - faith. The guy kept on repeating that we have to have works. In the end I didn't feel convinced as I felt that it was faith, not my works past or present that carried me through hard times. What if works are motivated by selfish desire? Can one say that's real faith?
I think only Jah can really determine whether one has faith or not. Yet the elders always try to quantify your faith by how much paper you placed and how much of your time you gave. They equate that to faith. Methinks flawes thinking. Guilt-tripping into submission.
Thanks for wisdom and kind words y'all. To be honest I'm still afraid to even be here, waiting for some awful thing to happen to me as a result of talking to all the happy peeps labeled "apostates". I ain't laughing, the fear is real.
the elders always try to quantify your faith by how much paper you placed and how much of your time you gave. They equate that to faith. Methinks flawes thinking.
This is something I never understood as a JW. I saw people cheat on their time -- especially pioneers, who had the most to lose. Does the organization's leadership really believe that those numbers on the slips reflect reality? There is huge incentive to fudge the numbers, especially if one wants privileges or good standing in the congregation.
I'm still afraid to even be here, waiting for some awful thing to happen
Has anything awful happened since you posted here? A lot of posters started out feeling the same way, but now are okay. I'd say the odds are that awful things are just as likely to happen if you go back to being an active JW. I encourage you to take charge of the situation, keep digging for new understanding, and don't let the fear that the organization tries to implant in each of its members overwhelm you. You are in charge of your life, not a bunch of old guys in Brooklyn (who have no connection whatsoever with any God named "Jehovah" except by their own claim of it).
Hi Gopher: Yes, the faking of timeslips...kinda proves the point that many are their to look good for the BOE, rather than storing up treasures in Heaven!
Satanus says, "Our first priority is living our lives as well as we can, treating others in an equitable manner [rather than change the world]." My thought is that the two are the same...
And how do you deal with the present reality without having the Watchtower as a support system if you're out or on the way out (or still attending, but tired of "waiting of Jehovah" to solve all your problems)?
I would submit to you that you never really had the WT as a support system. Oh sure, they might present themselves as such, but where the rubber meets the road, you're on your own. I'm sure you've had this comfirmed through your whole situation. I know I have. The WT isn't there to support you. YOU are there to support IT.
And when your 'faith' or belief or conviction or whatever...whenever those things fail you and you're weak and you need help...That's when you see their true colors...you see what they're really all about. They are only interested in you as you perpetuate THEM. It's not about you, and it never was. I really fear for the WT religion, should Jesus show up someday...
In any event, I feel for you; your story reflected my own in many ways. Part of the struggle is knowing the path you must tread, but it looks unworkable. I gained much comfort in knowing that many other people have walked in my shoes, and tread my exact path before I did. I didn't have to be the first one, wondering if I'm screwing up and damning myself should Armageddon show up next week.
At your disposal, are all the tools you will ever need for forming a life for yourself outside the WT prison. It seems that you have already faced youself in the mirror and admitted that you can't lie for God. What kind of God would ask you to?
As you make your own way down this path, and learn to rely on your own observations and natural reasoning, this board can be a great help. I hope you make extensive use of it.
tartarus:
Yet the elders always try to quantify your faith by how much paper you placed and how much of your time you gave. They equate that to faith.
Faith isn't something that can be weighed or measured. In the WT org, nobody can read hearts. But they can read timeslips, listen to your comments, see if your WT is underlined, probe you with questions. THAT is how they measure you up as worthy of salvation. APPEARANCES are what matter.
In the secular world, a regular person may never set foot in a court of law during their entire life. Many who do go to court are not defendants. Therefore, people are free to live their lives as they choose, according to accepted legal limits. However, in the JW world, many are judged every single day. Everything is open to be scrutinized if you happen to be among JW nitpickers. While there are judicial cases, most of the "friends" are tried by judgmental comments coming from almost anyone else in the group. Saying "I have faith in Jehovah" means nothing. Anything you say or do, or that you don't say or don't do, can be used as proof against you that you don't have faith.
Additionally, the standard operating procedure for the WT organization is to keep everyone so busy, and so tired, that they are too exhausted to question or research anything outside of their publications. Also, having the "friends" overworked and underpaid keeps them yearning for the "Kingdom" where everything will be easy and happy and wonderful forever.
To be honest I'm still afraid to even be here, waiting for some awful thing to happen to me as a result of talking to all the happy peeps labeled "apostates". I ain't laughing, the fear is real.
That's exactly how they want you to feel. That fear of reprisal is a similarity between JWs and communists, eh? What do you think are the consequences of everyone finding out you no longer believe everything JWs teach? 6 billion people have never believed what JWs teach. I'm quite sure they aren't thinking badly of you for being here.
If you choose to have faith in God, that's fine, many do. Allah, Jesus, Buddha, Santa Clause, take your pick. People put faith in many things and many people expecting certain benefits. But also be aware of the consequences of where you put your faith.
B the X
I'm interested in knowing how others are finding their life without the possibility of living forever
After 28 years on the inside I DA'ed myself 4 years and renounced any deity at all...NO God Jesus Angels Devil Paradise Earth...I have never been happier...
Good stuff everyone, thanks for taking the time to actually read what i have to say and to find something profound to say on the matter without being judgmental or narrow-minded. Thanks for treating my thoughts and concerns with dignity and love. Same thing right back at y'all. Spasibo
Taking it slow is a great advice. I have crashed and burned before when I left, rejecting everything I believed in a very short period of time. It was nuts, my life was a total mess. I partied a lot, chain-smoked,drank , did drugs and experimented with sex like there no tomorrow (well in my view at the time I didn't actually have a tomorrow to look forward too). I needed something to stop the self-destruction course I was on. I think that's why I came back. But there's more.
I had a bit of a weird experience. You can label me a nutcase, but I believe an angel was guiding me back to the congregation. This happened after I left and put myself thru a lot, looking for answers and not findin them and slowly burning out, like a human candle. I was laying on a bed depressed, crying, praying, I called again and again on God, desperate, lost. Asked him to forgive me, said I repented and would like to change, but had no strength or faith left to do anything except lay there and cry helplessly. Some one took me firmly by the wrists, made me get up and led me to the living room. I could hear what he said, but didn't hear a voice, I didn't see anyone either. I could feel him holding my hands he was there, I believed it was Jehovah's messenger sent to help me. He took me to the balcony and told me to jump, I refused, recalling Jesus saying no to Satan's similar request. Then he put made me go down on my knees and my hands behind my back and made me bow. I didn't hear a voice, but I heard in my head "Ask!" I didn't know what it is exactly he wanted me to ask for. "Forgiveness" I heard again. I prayed. I said I wanted to be loved by Jah, wanted to be his servant again and this time I would try harder. He then led to the shower told me to wash myself. After I'd done that he took me out into the hall of of my building and stopped me in front on one of my neighbours doors. MY hand was pulled towards it , I resisted, I knew what he wanted me to do. I hated this situation as hated to preach in the past. I could resist, but didn't , he made me knock. Some South Indian kid opened the door. I was standing there lost for words mumbled "sorry, I don't know what I'm doing here". The kid shouted "NO!" as he slammed the door in my face. Later on my mother came back and saw me in this state of unusual excitement, talking about some one there who wasn't there, she didn't see anyone next to me and didn't hear any voice other than hers and mine, but this being (angel) kept on holding one of my hands firmly throughout the whole day, guiding me like a child to get dressed, pick up my books and all the way to the Kingdom Hall. I literally couldn't see anything around me as my eyes thru the meeting were full of tears, they kept on falling, I couldn't hold back. I felt that invisible hand holding my hand till late evening that Sunday, even going with me for a walk, I sang praises, I sang like a kid "I love Jehovah, Jehovah is my friend". He made my hand go into a "thumbs up" position when I sang and soon let go. I never felt it touch me again. It was hard to believe that it was real, but I know what I felt.
Later on when I resumed studing the Bible and one of Society's books with an elder I told him the whole story. It kind of hurt me at first when he inquired whether I was using drugs, hinted at it being an unclean spirit. I don't care if I'm believed or not - I know what I felt, I heard the voice clearly in my head, I felt the firm grip of my wrists and of my hand. He didn't let go of me for the duration of the whole day that invisible person. After a spiritual experience like that one can never quite be the same. My mother was there, she saw the amazing transformation that took place from that day on. My life changed for the better on in every sense. I quit smoking, slept like a baby again, cared for my health and appearance. Wanted to live again. Took a short course and got a better job. I know this experience is real. The changes in my life were real. Maybe that's why I still believe firmly that God has touched me thru an angel and tried to help me back up.
Anyways, the only person who believed this was my mother as she was actually there and saw me talking to some one who was not there and acting as if I was lead by someone. Others I told this to were skeptical if not worse. Maybe I should have kept this to myself afterall, but I couldn't.
Now, I was taught Jehovah doesn't do any special outreach like that today and Christians don't have the same healing powers and speaking in tongues given by the Holy Spirit in the first century. In other words angels don't actually materialize and become visible, or touch us so we can feel it today like it was back in apostles days. My personal experience contradicts that.
Has anyone ever had an experience like mine, being touched by an invisible being ?
I've heard many a story either like that or very similar, I've even had a few of my friends experience such.
Anyway, don't worry about people thinking you're crazy, if you believe in God, some people will already think u r crazy.
My best friend has gone through more physical demanding and emotionally exhausting experiences than most people have a right to in one life. First, when he was around 11, he was messing around on a potato piler. For one reason or another, the belts, instead of moving the same direction, started moving toward each other. Since he was right at the intersection of the two belts, his legs were sucked down between the two belts and pretty much mutilated up to the knees. More damage would have been done, but somehow, someway, he managed to swing around and hit the off switch. Coincidence? I have a hard time believing that. Now, he walks with a slight limp, has scars down his legs that are as big as some people's legs, and he can still school me in basketball.
Then, when he was around 19, he was on his way back from a basketball game with his younger brother. His brother was wearing a seatbelt but he wasn't. He ends up rolling his truck and he gets thrown out through the front window...and lands in the only pile of snow in the area. Later, he would tell me that it felt like something was holding him up and guiding him to that snow pile. His brother, on the other hand, wasn't as fortunate. He got crushed between the dashboard and the seat and smashed his pelvis and caused all sorts of internal injuries. However, he would also tell me that as the truck was rolling, he felt something pushing him down against the seat and hold him in place. Otherwise he would have sustained several head injuries that may have killed him.
Now you can argue that it was only the adrenaline flowing to cause such sensations, or it was an attempt on their part, as ignorant believers, to explain such miracles in a way that fit their beliefs.
So anyway, to reiterate tartarus, you're not crazy. You're blessed, IMO, for I haven't had that personal of an experience.
