The Long Road To Forgiveness

by BurnTheShips 49 Replies latest jw friends

  • NanaR
    NanaR
    If theoretically, say, god forgives us our sins because we believe in Jesus and then we change religions, the forgiveness is withdrawn.

    Trevor:

    On what basis do you make this statement?

    When God forgives us our sins, he does so completely and does not withdraw that forgiveness. Having been forgiven in the past does not preclude the need to seek forgiveness in the future when/if we sin again, and does not rule out the possibility that we can walk away from Him and His forgiveness (grace).

    God honors our free will. If we choose to live without him, and die without him, that is our choice.

    His choice is always to forgive us. He loves us no matter what our "religion". We are all His children, and He is available to all of us.

    Pax,

    Ruth

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    Nark

    I was just pointing to an objective and, to me, rather disturbing fact: her way to "forgiveness" led her away from her own culture to submission to the "god" of her (collective) tortioners. This is by no means unusual if you consider that the majority of Christians, Moslems, etc., historically embraced the religion of their conquerors.

    You must mean the same way the US conquered France in WW2.

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    Narkissos,

    Baba Yaga: Do I really need to explain that I didn't intend to make any criticism about this person nor the path she took -- not to mention the ordeal she went through?

    Well, obviously you do, as this is JWD and subtlety of understanding and reading between the lines is not standard issue.

    I was just pointing to an objective and, to me, rather disturbing fact: her way to "forgiveness" led her away from her own culture to submission to the "god" of her (collective) tortioners. This is by no means unusual if you consider that the majority of Christians, Moslems, etc., historically embraced the religion of their conquerors.

    I agree. This is almost an unwritten assumption that it was neccessary that Jesus Christ be a part of her life in order for her level of forgiveness to be possible, an absurd notion. I can however see why she is more likely to seek an understanding of what happened to her at the hands of those who harmed her, a not uncommon psychological neccessity.

    About forgiveness, I very much agree with your statement, but I'll add that I have equal respect for the people who "unselfishly" refuse to forgive and perhaps suffer more, for the sake of justice and memory for instance (this has been a long and painful discussion between Jews and Christians ever since the shoah, for instance). I don't believe in one way for everyone, and I think the opposite attitudes on this issue (as on many others) derive any meaning they may have from each other. Forgiveness is only meaningful because it is neither a duty nor a norm. In a world of universal forgiveness it would be meaningless.

    I wish that I could add something to this perfectly reasoned statement, but I cannot. HS, silenced at last. ...errrr.....I am going to say something anyway.

    Each person finds their own personal philosophy when it comes to the matter of forgiveness, or lack of it. I am not a person who believes in the fantasy of 'unconditional love', neither do I believe in the fantasy of a religious experience introducing an external power in our lives that allows us to forgive everything. If anything, and speaking from personal expereince, forgiveness inspired by Christ is more a duty than a choice based on honor. It is a very liberating experience deciding not to forgive a person for their crimes against us.

    Some people, some situations especially when remorse is absent, do not deserve forgiveness, and it is far more noble imo for a person to take the road less travelled and actually seperate sentimentality from honor and then learn to live with ones decision. My choice not to forgive does not make me a lesser person for choosing this path, in fact quite the contrary.

    I do believe in reconciliation, but this is another matter altogether, despite the fact that it is a word often confused with the word 'forgiveness'.

    HS

  • Rapunzel
    Rapunzel

    There are many paths to forgiveness, although, as Narkissos points out, it is a matter of debate whether forgiveness is the optimal [or even desirable] alternative in every situation.

    This woman's soul is without a doubt a very "beautiful" one, but it is one that arguably may have been a co-opted one. The motives of the woman herself are certainly sincere and noble in the extreme. But I would not be at all surprised to learn that hers is also a manipulated soul. Everyone knows that the expression, "I have accepted Jesus Christ as my personal savior" is a canned cliche. It reflects a mindless vacuity. Therefore, it also would not surprise me to learn that this woman had "handlers" [manipulators]. It is the motives of these vipers that are utterly reprehensible. They're barely human. They lured a woman - a woman who has already suffered immensely, almost beyond any endurable limits - away from a her own religion and the anchor of her cultural traditions; and they have forced upon her an alien religion, mode of thought, and world-view. And they did so only for greed - either monetary greed or a greed for power, power over another totally innocent human being. The exact source of their greed is unimportant. It is all one. Whatever the source of their greed, it is disgusting.

    Moreover, it is all so utterly needless because this woman already had a wonderful inspiration for forgiveness at her disposal - Buddhism. Buddhism is the path most natural for her. Her culture is a Buddhist culture.

    It is very much a question of cultural violence. As if all the napalm and horrid destruction were not enough. I ask a simple question: When the hell will Christians realize that their path is not the only path; that their path is simply one path among many paths? When will Christians relinquish their christo-centric arrogance? When the hell will Christians learn to leave the people of other cultures alone? Even the most cursory and superficial review of history will show Christians - both Catholics and Protestants - to be virtually indistinguishable, in cultural terms, to a horde of soldiers ants or a swarm of locusts. Throughout history, they have left in their wakes vast "swaths" of cultural destruction, upheaval, and waste. They have plundered the land, but what is worse, they have plundered people's souls and spirits. In their colonialist/imperialist zeal, they have decimated entire cultures the world over. Simply stated, Christianity is an ideology that had its source in the Levant and then went westward. Obscenely coupled with imperialism and colonialism, it then went south and back eastward with a vengence. It "infected" North America; South America; Africa; and Asia. It was "planted" in soils in which it never belonged.

    How can Christianity itself atone for the destruction and havoc that it has wreaked? How will it ever be able to make amends and "pay back" the people whose lives it has ruined throughout history? There will never be any way for it to do so. All those great civilizations are lost forever.

    The only thing that Christianity can do is to extinguish its hubris. What Christians should do is to forget about soul-saving, and concentrate on soul-searching. The Vietnamese woman featured in the article is really a sort of microcosm. That is to say, on a personal level, she is indicative of the exploitive nature of colonialist and neo-imperialist aggression as perpetrated under the cover of Christianity. Far from being a "beautiful" story, hers is really quite a sad one to consider. It seems that some people are not content with plundering people's lands and territories, they insist on enslaving people's spirits.

  • beksbks
    beksbks

    Deputy Dog, that was a rather lame attempt to wheel out that tired old chestnut.

  • beksbks
    beksbks

    As far as forgiveness goes, and in this type of case in particular, isn't it really just another form of therapy? The point really is to ease the victim's pain. The perpetrator, not only did not seek forgiveness, was not remorseful, but went on to repeat the offense.

    I find this whole forgiveness issue rather contradictory to the actions of christians in this country. They are almost without exception, for the death penalty. Where is the forgiveness there? Or do they forgive just before they flip the switch?

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    There are many paths to forgiveness, although, as Narkissos points out, it is a matter of debate whether forgiveness is the optimal [or even desirable] alternative in every situation.

    Forgiveness is a complex word, and means different things based on context.

    This woman's soul is without a doubt a very "beautiful" one, but it is one that arguably may have been a co-opted one.

    Do you know that it was? Or are you assuming it was in order to simply argue a point? The purpose of this thread was about forgiveness, and you are using it as a platform for something very different.

    But I would not be at all surprised to learn that hers is also a manipulated soul.

    Just what is a manipulated soul? Is it one that is influenced by another? In that case what soul is not manipulated? Some here are making this sound like Stockholme syndrome.

    Everyone knows that the expression, "I have accepted Jesus Christ as my personal savior" is a canned cliche. It reflects a mindless vacuity.

    To you it is a canned cliche, it is not for others. It has no force or strength to you, but for others it is a philosophy of life and a path to walk in. So no, not everyone seems to know this as you do. Be careful what "cliches" you tread upon.

    Therefore, it also would not surprise me to learn that this woman had "handlers" [manipulators]. They lured a woman - a woman who has already suffered immensely, almost beyond any endurable limits - away from a her own religion and the anchor of her cultural traditions; and they have forced upon her an alien religion, mode of thought, and world-view. And they did so only for greed - either monetary greed or a greed for power, power over another totally innocent human being. The exact source of their greed is unimportant. It is all one. Whatever the source of their greed, it is disgusting.

    You are building an assumption upon a narrow point of view upon another assumption and none of your assumptions is even demonstrated as actual. Apparently this woman has found peace in this path and has gone forward in her life and has even acted in many large ways to help others that have had similar experiences--yet somehow you make it sound like she was violated in a dank dark alley in the most pejorative terms possible.

    Moreover, it is all so utterly needless because this woman already had a wonderful inspiration for forgiveness at her disposal - Buddhism. Buddhism is the path most natural for her. Her culture is a Buddhist culture.

    You heap praise upon Buddhism when your further comments heap scorn upon Christianity. Do you not see your own double standard? Buddhism is part the culture of many lands outside India because it spread beyond India into these lands. It spread south, east, north and as far west as Greece to the point that some believe it informed early Christianity and supplied some of its tenets. This is the very sort of invasion you deride! And you speak of culture as something that is unchanging.

    Culture is not static but always in flux as it rubs against others and incorporates new things. Syncretism, when it comes in the Western direction, gets applauded. But when it goes in the opposite direction, it gets derided as cultural imperialism.

    BTS

  • llbh
    llbh
    I do believe in reconciliation, but this is another matter altogether, despite the fact that it is a word often confused with the word 'forgiveness'.

    For me one is unilateral and the other is bilateral. i e one is totally unconditional the as in the case of this lady . The other is conditional upon the agreeing of the parties involved

    David

  • hillbilly
    hillbilly

    I heard that story on Public Radio too. I immediatly was reminded about the book " The Five People You Meet In Heaven" (wrong?) by Mitch (Whatshisname).

    We are nothing if we cannot forgive. Those of you who went straight to condeming those who fought this war in VN... just remember all those 19 year olds (all sides) need forgivness and have had to forgive those who sent them. In a war everyone looses a part of their soul and forgivness is essential for all to heal.

    Give peace a chance is a nice platitude. As long as tyranny abounds and politicians try to destroy evil in an effort to promote their agendas forgivness will aways be needed.

    Jeff

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    They are almost without exception, for the death penalty. Where is the forgiveness there?

    Surely you jest, right? The largest denominations in the US oppose the death penalty. Catholic, Anglican, Lutheran, these are the first that come to mind.

    http://www.americancatholic.org/news/deathpenalty/

    http://www.consistent-life.org/

    EDIT: Let me add the Orthodox Church to that list:

    http://www.deathpenaltyreligious.org/education/statements/orthodox.html

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