I don't think The Watchtower wants a person to actually think deeply using only the Bible about its doctrines.
What The Watchtower teaches doesn't hold up under very close examination.
Isn't this proof the GB doesn't believe what it preaches?
by nbernat 21 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
-
-
aSphereisnotaCircle
Nbernat, I have used this argument with some of my JW family. I have said that research is a good thing and that the truth should stand up to any kind of critique.
There reply is that "Satan keeps turning himself into an angel of light and deceiving people".
I say "If that is true. then how do you know that your not the one being deceived?"
There reply "well uh, uh because I have researched it and found it to be true!"
I say, "so then researching it, is OK?
there reply "well uh..... the right kind of research is OK!"
meaning selective research only
-
Billy the Ex-Bethelite
"But nbernat, now you've found "the truth(tm)" so it's a waste of time to listen to anyone else... go out and preach the good news of the Watchtower Kingdom!!!"
As trained as the JWs are to go out and zealously tell others to critically examine their religions and tell others to listen to the stories of apostates of their religions, it's super-hyper-hypocritical of them to not encourage JWs to critically examine their own religion and listen to JW apostates.
So, while the dubs are out trying to pick straws out of the eyes of householders, they've got 2 by 4s sticking out of their own eyesockets.
B the X
-
StAnn
nbernat, Some JWs have been coming around and making calls on our church secretary. Our priest leaves when they come in and goes into another room where he can watch and listen remotely! I teased him and called him a chicken. He said, no, he wants our secretary to learn her faith well enough to defend it against the JWs. He'll even IM questions to her for her to ask them while they're talking. I told him that I thought it was rude for the JWs to be calling on someone in their own church. He agreed but said that, if she were doing a good enough job of defending the faith, they wouldn't keep coming back, right? The fact that they're coming back shows they think they're making some progress, which he says shows that she needs to apply herself better to learning her faith so she can defend it. She takes all of their literature. Father thinks it's a good thing! She discusses it with me to try to understand their crazy teachings.
I'd love to see a JW elder encourage a JW to welcome Catholics who are out preaching, take their literature, read it and discuss it with them. Wouldn't happen because they're too insecure.
StAnn
-
Jeremy C
They encourage it in the beginning to "compare" and rationalize. . .don't they think if they're 100% sure that their members are capable of reasoning to the point where they can weight the evidence in FAVOR of the WTS??
Actually, they DO NOT believe that the rank and file are capable of making such rational evaluations. The Watchtower organization (beginning with Rutherford's era) has effectively used various Bible passages which can be interpreted to teach that the flock needs to be constantly guarded, protected, coddled, micro-managed, and have their hands held by those "taking the lead". The Watchtower through its history, has been very good at convincing its members that all information which is unflattering to the organization originates from Satan. They have often resorted to Old Testament analogies (such as the rebellion of Korah against Moses) to draw parallels with the modern day organization and its leadership. The current Governing Body members were once rank and file Witnesses who read these Watchtower articles, were swayed by their sophistry, and eventually bought into this paradigm whereby it now governs them just as much as it does any other congregation member.
The Watchtower's concept of their own organizational exclusivity (whereby they are the only "truth" bearers) in effect invalidates any dissent by default. If anyone should dare dissent from or oppose this "channel" of Jehovah God, they are nothing more than an enemy of God, and therefore have nothing to offer but untruth. Once the Watchtower organization has been effectively paralleled with Moses and the Old Covenant priesthood, JWs are almost impervious to any contrary input. This includes the leaders of JWs themselves.
We must remember that the current leadership are nothing more than rank and file Jehovah's Witnesses who were indoctrinated with this plausible sounding Watchtower material, and eventually progressed up the organizational chain of command to the top post. They believe their own rehetoric, because they believe that such rhetoric eminates from Jehovah God and Christ Jesus. They view themselves merely as the "channel", and not the authors.
-
agent zero
B the X, its sooooo true how they get ppl from other religions to totally re-examine, doubt, question, leave their religions, but as soon as someone raises a thought provoking question to them they shut down completely, like they'd rather not even think about it. of course all the JW info is put together in a way so it seems amazingly true so it makes sense that many would believe it, but then to not even give attention to a differing viewpoint is just beyond me, seems so rediculous.
i also agree that if the GB was honest they'd invite members to compare with apostate and/or open viewpoint information, because the "truth", being on their side, should then be obvious right? but they know it just doesnt hold up. also, on sites like this one is where you find the people who are most willing to debate about religion...... isnt that what they're supposed to be looking for in the first place when they're out in service?? alot of service time available here for 'em pioneers!
A0
-
Terry
The Watchtower Society has used confrontation throughout its history.
Only in recent years has it shied away from confrontation when the Internet made it possible for opposers to throw their own printed words back in their collective face.
Now the policy is one of stonewalling and insulation.
When the Society faced persecution because of flag salute statutes, local peddling ordinances and pled of alliegience controversies, confrontation provided the means of getting them due process all the way to the Supreme Court.
What the Watchtower and Governing Body face now is indefensible. The criticism of "apostates" is something which cannot be defeated by better argument, more rational dialogue or a principled debate. Why? The Governing Body and the Watchtower are on the wrong side of truth.
The organization is run by fiat and not be persuasion anymore.
They are completely vulnerable to refutation.
There is not forum inside of Jehovah's Witnesses' structural authority for the Loyal Opposition to voice concerns or obtain a fair hearing.
We are looking at Fascism and not theocracy.
Jesus engaged in face to face confrontations throughout his ministry mainly with members of his own religion! He faced leadership and spoke truth to authority without hesitation. He even stood toe to toe refuting Satan himself by quoting scripture to him.
No Jehovah's Witness is required to present a defense anymore. The drawbridge is raised and the castle has become a fort under siege.
Why?
The Theology of Jehovah's Witnesses was created on two levels historically.
1. Pastor Russell cobbled together already existing arguments from Adventist freebooters to create his theology. All his major theses have been refuted by world events.
2.Rutherford made his theology up out of whole cloth and Fred Franz jerry-rigged the scriptural support out of pure assertion.
3.Present day Authority makes it an act of treason to question or debate the beliefs and policies.
This is a closed shop.
-
amicus
If the GB really thought they had the exact truth perfect from flaws, shouldn't they be telling their members, "Go look at the Apostate stuff-- you'll see it's all lies! Compare it to the Bible and you'll see it's all lies!" That would completely eliminate apostasy if it were all true, no?
That makes sense to me.
I didn't use "Apostate" material to answer my doubts about Jehovah's Witnesses. I used only their own literature and a couple translations of the Bible.
I had faded away at a much younger age but never had answered my doubts (1975-76). Years later I decided that I needed to address this issue.
When I eventually returned to the Kingdom Hall, I threw myself into my "studies".
My meeting attendence was excellent, I prestudied everything. I read not only the scriptures quoted, but all the scriptures referenced. I read them "in context", often going back many verses or at times chapters until I thought I had grasped what was really being discussed in said scriptures. I often used more than one Bible translations to clarify what I was reading. This was when the Society Publications were released on CDROM, in win3.0 I believe, so I had access to a decent amount of WTBTS publications to study besides the current literature used.It took about a year, and I wouldn't even begin to try to estimate how many hours. Three or four hours a day were common. But eventually I began to realize that the WTBTS was doing some serious scripture twisting.
I kind of crack up now because at first I thought I was understanding some "deeper" thing the Society was hinting at. I'd raise my hand at a WT study and offer some comment like "Bear in mind that this Scripture referenced...read scripture...is saying something entirely different. I think what the Society is reminding us of here is "blah, blah, blah". Sooo many times the study conductor would look at me like a deer caught in the headlights and quickly move on. Damn, I wanted discussion! In retrospect I think they had no idea what the "reference" scriptures said as they hadn't read them.
Once I realized the "rule book" (the Bible) didn't support this "game" the WTBTS wanted us to play with them, it was all over for me. It would have been much easier for me to have stuck it out with the witnesses. I couldn't live the lie though.
I didn't get to interact with Apostates or read any Apostate material until months after I had walked out of a Kingdom Hall for the last time. Sites like this might have saved me a lot of time, I was blown away... in a good way, when I first visited here. I'm a big proponent of people trying to reason things out for themselves though. So take your time. Read, ask questions and reason on things such as the topic you chose for this thread. We're not going anywhere any time soon.
-
parakeet
".....don't they think if they're 100% sure that their members are capable of reasoning to the point where they can weight the evidence in FAVOR of the WTS??"
-
chellechelle
this is true.. if they were sure that the information they are putting out is true then they should have no problem with checking up on what others say.. the problem is that they arent sure of themselves. they realize that they only have so many ways of keeping their control over people's minds.. and one of these is the propoganda. if one of the so called " sheep" goes out and finds a greener pasture.. why would he want to come back..