Need help responding to a pioneer (page 2)

Lady Zombie

Why did "Vernae" just message me with the same 50 page diatribe he/she just posted?!

JCanon

In arguing that Jesus is Michael the archangel, the Watchtower Society also points to another verse that does not use the name Michael but says that “the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet...” (1 Thessalonians 4:16, NWT). However, the expression “with an archangel’s voice” simply means that the archangel, like God’s trumpet, will herald the coming of the Lord, not that the Lord is an archangel.

Oh PALEEZE! Your vivid imagination will not get past THIS scripture.

Ever heard of VOICE recognition? It's a whole scientific field. A person's VOICE is like their face or their fingerprint. It is unique. People are recognized by their voice. So why on earch would Christ not use his OWN voice to raise the dead? Why does he need the voice of Michael? In what way is Michael's voice so much more impressive than that of Jesus' own voice.

Plus how ridiculous is it to compare the trumpet of God that Jesus caries with the archangel's voice? You can can give me a musical instrument to use, which I can use as authority that that instrument carries. But can you give me your VOICE? No. It's too personal.

So when it says Jesus comes with an archangel's voice it is complementing Jesus for the authority of that voice that he has, which is unique, which is because there is ONLY ONE ARCHANGEL. Obviously that archangel is Jesus Christ. C'mon, he's not going to be using someone else's voice, right?

So Jesus, YES, is Michael the Archangel. End of story. Elvis heard this and left the building right after this, so....

JohnC

megs

Hi Nameless One... My JW friend got me interested in finding out more. To be honest, initially I found it appealing... ready made friends, study based worship. That being said, so far I'm not convinced, but I am willing to listen. I am not sure what I believe right now, so I've been exploring my options.

StAnn

Megs, despite your sola scriptura beliefs, consider this: Billy the X says that the New World Translation substitutes "exercises faith" instead of "believes" in John 3:16. Belief is an ACT of the will. It isn't involuntary. If the JW tells you that you must have works, let her know that belief IS a work. This is, essentially, how the Catholics and Lutherans came to realize that they weren't divided on this issue re: works and faith.

There is nothing in that scripture the JW can use to indicate that the "works" she will imply are more than the works of belief. Nowhere does it say, "all who sell magazines for me will gain eternal life."

StAnn

nameless_one

Hi Nameless One... My JW friend got me interested in finding out more. To be honest, initially I found it appealing... ready made friends, study based worship. That being said, so far I'm not convinced, but I am willing to listen. I am not sure what I believe right now, so I've been exploring my options.

Hi megs, thanks for the reply. I was (sort of) in your position a number of years ago, so your situation is interesting to me. It sounds like you are already very well-versed in the bible, and also well aware of the many problems and issues surrounding the WTS, so your journey is an interesting and informed one. I respect the willingness to listen, and the need to explore. I hope you'll keep us updated here about how things progress, and your observations on what you learn and experience.

(Have to throw in the standard warning, though; I know you already know, but still: Be careful, and stay very aware of the indoctrination techniques. The WTS doesn't stand on doctrine alone, or at all frankly; it's the subtle altering of the thought process that allows the rest to "make sense.")

Best wishes to you; again, I do hope you'll continue to share your experiences here.

boyzone

Black Sheep

Don't bother debating doctrine.

Ask him/her for list of Babylonian kings from Neb to Nab showing what years they reigned in.

All of the information that he/she requires is on any WT CD.

Know 607/587 inside out. Do not let them change the subject.

Cheers
Chris

WTWizard

A complete novice when it comes to the Bible up against an expert pioneer:

Try Ephesians 2:8 and 9. That one is the one that tells of salvation by grace and not works. The witlesses have a hard time with born-agains because born-agains use that scripture a lot. Insist on using that, and the witlesses are going to have trouble with that study.

Burger Time

One thing that always got me was that they claim you must do works for proof of Baptism (a little off topic I know) yet Simon in Acts 8 only professed belief and was baptized (Acts 8:13). It also clearly said the Holy Spirit was not used (Acts 8:15,16), something witnesses love to counter with on this subject. Now you should ask if all Simon had to do was "profess" faith and nothing more why do you need to study? Why were these men allowed to baptized by only belief? Watch as your pioneer sister can't seem to find answer. When John arrived it wasn't to nullify the baptisms in fact most of them immediately received the holy spirit(Acts 8:17)! No more works conversation after that.

Need help responding to a pioneer

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