Need help responding to a pioneer

by megs 24 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Slappy
    Slappy

    In my experience with the JW door-to-door salesmen/women, they have set verses that they use to support their assertions. However, when you read those same verses in their true context, you'll see that how the JWs applied them are rarely right. Granted, it's not easy to determine the exact context, but if you study, things will make more sense as time passes. An understanding of the Bible as a whole is needed to truly determine what an individual portion is saying. Sorta like without knowing what mathematics is, can you understand 2+2=4?

    What has been the biggest help to me is getting a NKJV Study Bible. Not that I have problem with other translations, it's just that I'm wary when there is a certain translation that is pushed by a particular "religion". Also, with a study bible, certain explanations about the history at that time, or the significance of a particular tradition can greatly increase one's understanding of what is being said. This will change what seems to be said to what was actually meant.

    Also, Bible study with others who want to discover the truth is great. However, Bible study with someone who thinks they already have the truth, and the only reason they are doing so is to indoctrinate one into a certain "religion"...not so good. Motive is everything.

    Also, a lot of poeple (JWs, Mormons, and others) argue that works are needed for salvation because they: 1) either truly don't understand the nature of a gift (God gave), 2) have been manipulated by those in the regions of power because without the "works" clause, the religion would crumble and power would disappear, 3) several other reasons of which I'm not aware of.

    And I second what has already been said. Good points all around, especially LZ's comment about the Bible only. Same thing applies to Mormons, have a Bible study (without the horse thief's additions) and they have nothing to stand on (not like their legs have been cut off...more like they're standing on their head ).

    Study the first two letters by John. I believe that should answer any questions you have concerning works/faith and will also give you an understanding of what truly characterizes a false prophet (which the JWs I've talked to can't seem to get enough of mentioning).

    Hope what everybody as said will help you and that you will be guided by truth (from the Bible, not by what man has twisted it to say).

  • Honesty
    Honesty

    Ask her these questions:

    If Jesus was resurrected as an invisible spirit, like the Watchtower teaches, why did Jesus say he was going to raise his physical body from the dead (John 2:19-22)?

    If Jesus, the man, ceased to exist at his death and was raised from the dead as Michael the Archangel, why did Michael deceive the apostles into believing that they were witnessing Jesus in a resurrected physical body (Luke 24:39)?

    If Jesus is now living in heaven as an invisible spirit creature, like the Watchtower teaches, why did Paul write many years after the ascension of Christ that he is dwelling in heaven in a physical body (Colossians 2:9)? Note: The Greek word, somatikos, means physical, tangible body.

    If Jesus is now Michael the Archangel, why does 1 Timothy 2:5 say that the mediator between God and men is the man, Christ Jesus, and not the spirit, Michael the Archangel?

    Can you show me a verse in the bible that clearly says Jesus is the Archangel Michael? How can Jesus be Michael since Hebrews chapter 1 stresses the superiority of Jesus over the angels and that all the angels worship him? Why would Jehovah command that the entire angelic realm worship another angel? Note: The Watchtower bible changes the word worship, in Hebrews 1:6, to "do obeisance to". However, see section below on the New World Translation.

    Since the Watchtower was wrong in the past about many of its teachings and the light continues to get brighter (Proverbs 4:18), how do you know that the current teachings are correct and won’t change?

    Why did the Watchtower magazine (Nov 15, 1981, p. 21) say to "come to Jehovah’s organization for salvation" when Jesus never directed us to an organization for salvation but to him?

    When you joined the Jehovah’s Witnesses, did you read information for and against the Watchtower so you could make an educated and well rounded decision based on both points of view?

    Has anyone become a Jehovah’s Witness after reading the bible alone without the aid of Watchtower material?

    If I were to join the Jehovah’s Witnesses, would it be okay for me to do research into the Watchtower’s past by reading non-Watchtower material?

    Since the Watchtower was in error many times in the past, are you obligated to believe that all the current teachings are God’s truth?

    If Jesus’ invisible presence began in 1914, like the Watchtower teaches, why was the Watchtower teaching in 1929 that Jesus’ invisible presence began in 1874? How did they finally figure out that that teaching was false? Reference: Prophecy, 1929, p. 65.

    Since the Watchtower claims to be God’s prophet (The Watchtower, April 1, 1972, p. 197) and have falsely predicted Armageddon to occur in 1914, 1918, 1925 and 1975, do you think they meet the criteria of Deuteronomy 18:20-22?

    Can you show me in the bible where it says to give false prophets a second or third chance to get it right?

    If the Watchtower really is Jehovah’s prophet, like they claim, can you show me anything they predicted that came to pass?

    Why did Hebrews 1:6 in the 1970 version of the New World Translation say, "Let all God’s angels worship him" and not "do obeisance to him" like the new versions say?

    Why does the New World Translation insert the word "other" four times into Colossians chapter 1 when it isn’t in the Greek manuscripts at all? Doesn’t this change the meaning of the text?

    Why does the New World Translation place the comma in Luke 23:43 in a different location than it does every other time when Jesus says, "Truly I tell you"?

    Can you show me a list of Greek scholars who approve of the New World Translation’s New Testament translation?

    Can you show me a list of the people who were on the New World Translation Committee along with their credentials in the ancient Biblical languages?

    If the Watchtower’s teaching that the 144,000 were filled in 1935 is correct, can you explain how Jesus, his apostles and their immediate followers couldn’t get 144,000 converts in 1800 years, but the Watchtower got 6 million converts in 125 years?

    Why does the Watchtower teach that only 144,000 people are born-again when 1 John 5:1 says that everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God?

    Why is there only one judgment period from God to test the endurance and worthiness of the 144,000 before they are guaranteed of eternal life, but the other sheep have to endure through this life, the 1000 year millennium plus pass an unknown final test before they are counted worthy of eternal life? Why is salvation so much easier for the 144,000?

    If Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are not part of the 144,000 with a heavenly hope, why does Jesus say in Matthew 8:11 that they will be in the kingdom of heaven?

    According to Jesus in John 17:3, how many true Gods are there? Would you say that whatever is not true is false? Doesn’t the New World Translation call Jesus "a god" in John 1:1? Since there is only one true God and all others must be false, is Jesus a true God or a false god?

    If Jesus was God’s Master Worker in creation, why does Jehovah say, in Isaiah 44:24, that He created all things by Himself?

    If Jesus is a created being, why does he get twice as much worship, in Revelation 5:12, as Jehovah gets in Revelation 4:11?

    If Jehovah created Jesus, why does John 1:3 say that all things came into existence through Jesus and apart from him not even one thing was made? Doesn’t this place Jesus outside the realm of created things?

    If everlasting life comes by taking in knowledge (John 17:3), how long do I have to study with the Jehovah’s Witnesses to be assured that I have enough knowledge to live forever? 1 year? 5 years?

    If we pay for our personal sins when we die, like the Watchtower teaches, how will the great crowd who survive Armageddon pay for their sins since they will never die but go right on living into the millennium?

    Does one have to accept the explantion of scripture as presented by the Watchtower Society's Editorial staff in their publications in order to have an approved relationship with God?

  • Slappy
    Slappy

    To add on to Honesty's post...which would give any JW a bad case of indigestion. Ask the "pioneer" those questions in a sincere (not challenging) tone. Also, see if she'll agree that just the two of you will search for the answers, and ask that she not ask others for help. Tell her you want to know what the Bible says about such things, not what others say what the Bible says. This way, you'll gain a greater understanding and could quite possibly guide the "pioneer" through the darkness.

    Just a suggestion.

  • StAnn
    StAnn

    A friend related an innocent conversation she had with a pioneer recently. She asked the pioneer, who was trying to get her to agree to a "Bible" study, some pretty simple questions. The pioneer told her she'd have to go look up the answers on the WT library cd-rom. My friend basically said, this is a simple question and if you're supposed to be some kind of full-time preacher and teacher, shouldn't you know the answer already and be able to show it to me from the Bible? That made the pioneer mad and now she "won't" study with my friend because of my friend's "bad heart condition!"

    Makes sense to me, if they are full-time ministers, they should be able to sit down and show you stuff from the Bible.

    StAnn

  • esw1966
    esw1966
    John 3:16 Jehovah has never rescinded is promise of everlasting life on earth for the ones that want to follow him and do his will. John 3:16 assures us that by that ransom, that superlative gift, we have that wonderful reward to look forward to.

    'want to follow him and do his will' - speaks of their insistance on works righteousness. Faith is a gift from God. It is not something we can grasp on our own. Faith and Life are gifts of God. Doing his will comes from entering a relationship with Jesus and putting your faith in his sacrifice, it is not something we work at to be on a list of prospective hopefuls of eternal life.

    Hebrews 5: 9 talks about Jesus’ activities in accomplishing this.

    Jesus defeated death. Those who put their faith in Christ have passed over from death to life. The helmet of salvation is a possession we have now, it is not a helmet of hope.

    Matthew 20:28 records that he would give his life or soul for whom, us. The ones that want to do his will as he did and is doing his Father’s will.

    Speaks of works again. They love this because just as the Pharisees tried to separate themselves from the common people by their works, jw's put down other's faiths because of matters of conscience that they feel other's should be living up to in order to be found 'perfect' by God. They do this to prove to themselves that they are the only true religion. Paul said not to judge others on observances of days. Father's will is all the rules of the jw. They strip away grace. It becomes one of works. They lose sight of the value of Christ's sacrifice. They fail to see their sin as the real issue. They feel they can 'do good' to 'be good' and 'get' life. It's not about what we do, it's about who we are. We're sinners. We're dead in sin. Christ saved us from our condition through faith. Following such love and forgiveness brings good conduct and shows that our heart is sincere, but our works will never earn our salvation or determine it.

    Matthew 28: 18-20 He has received all authority and states our responsibility. As we walk in his ways we will show that we are not like Adam, the one that alienated us from our loving Heavenly Father, but wish to do his will forever.

    Speaks of works again. They love works. But works is hypocritical and a house of cards. Law shows us our failures. It is meant to lead us to Christ. It shows us our dependance upon Christ. It should tell us that we can't do enough. We need more than works, we need salvation through Christ. We are like Adam. That's why we inherited sin. It shows the human condition and the need for Christ.

    As stated at John 5: 28, 29 guarantee of life. Romans 6:23 Where Adam sold us into death, Jesus gives life. Under Jesus’ 1,000 year reign we have opportunity to show our delight and appreciation for all that Jehovah and Jesus have done by continuing to learn. Today our guide book is the Bible lovingly preserved for us by our Father.

    That gets me most. They totally feel they will have to work for eternal life. New scrolls will be opened during that time. It's the ultimate self help book! You study the book during the 1000 years and you get perfect! That speaks of earning your salvation. The Bible doesn't say we can earn it. It says it is a gift. Why would you show your delight and appreciation for something you worked your butt off to attain. You earned it through your works of not sinning according to their story. Love comes from being forgiven much. That spurs a heart of gratitude. The fact that Christ died for my sins deepens my delight and appreciation. During and after the 1000 years, jw's will tell you that you can still lose your life. You can always sin at any time. At this, you will age and then die. Immortality is only for those in heaven. Those on the earth always have to work for their eternity. It is not a story of grace. It is a story of a cruel dictator who expects perfection out of dust. jw's never know if they attain God's love. They must wait until Armageddon to see if they see the next day. It feels like a flip of the coin. Did I do all I could have? Did I do more good than bad? What is their salvation based upon? Their works. They do not have their faith in Christ's sacrifice because the Society tells them Jesus died only for 144,000. That Jesus isn't their mediator. That they only benefit by doing what the Watchtower tells them. "if you give a glass of water to one of these you will be blessed.' So, they do what they are told thinking that these are God's last few people and if they do good to them they will be remembered at Armageddon. That is idolatry. They put man in Christ's place. Their salvation is in obedience to the Watchtower and it's elders. Their love is a work to gain life. It does not stem from being loved and being forgiven. It is selfish and hypocritical because it depends upon man and not God. It is self serving and not true.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit