Solid Non-Biblical Proof That Jesus Existed

by White Dove 74 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Gopher

  Sylvia,

  Strong evidence exists that Josephus' work was tampered with. A 4th-century Catholic named Eusebius appears to have put the interpolation in about Jesus and his miracles, etc. Eusebius was a bishop and a propagandist.

  Here's a key quote I found:

  Not a single writer before the 4th century – not Justin, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Cyprian, Arnobius, etc. – in all their defences against pagan hostility, makes a single reference to Josephus’ wondrous words.

  The third century Church 'Father' Origen, for example, spent half his life and a quarter of a million words contending against the pagan writer Celsus. Origen drew on all sorts of proofs and witnesses to his arguments in his fierce defence of Christianity. He quotes from Josephus extensively. Yet even he makes no reference to this 'golden paragraph' from Josephus, which would have been the ultimate rebuttal. In fact, Origen actually said that Josephus was "not believing in Jesus as the Christ.

  " Origen did not quote the 'golden paragraph' because this paragraph had not yet been written. It was absent from early copies of the works of Josephus and did not appear in Origen's third century version of Josephus, referenced in his Contra Celsum.

  We have to be careful about source material. Here's a site with more details: http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/josephus-etal.html
• 

  funkyderek

  S3RAPH1M:

  What if the man didn't exist? What if he did?

  Well, the beliefs of around 2 billion people depend on the existence of that man. If he didn't exist, their beliefs are definitely false. (Of course, even if he did exist, that doesn't mean that any of the staggeringly unlikely events recorded in the mutually contradictory accounts of his life actually happened.)

  snowbird:

  Have you checked the works of Josephus?

  Heh. It's lucky for you that you have faith if that's what you consider evidence!
• 

  XJW4EVR

  It's funny that so many pan Josephus, yet no one has posted the text in question. Therefore I will, with the interpolated text in caps and orange.

  Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man IF IT BE LAWFUL TO CALL HIM A MAN, for he was a doer of wonders, A TEACHER OF SUCH MEN AS RECEIVE THE TRUTH WITH PLEASURE. He drew many after him BOTH OF THE JEWS AND THE GENTILES. HE WAS THE CHRIST. When Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, FOR HE APPEARED TO THEM ALIVE AGAIN THE THIRD DAY, AS THE DIVINE PROPHETS HAD FORETOLD THESE AND THEN THOUSAND OTHER WONDERFUL THINGS ABOUT HIM, and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day (Antiquities 18:63-64).

  If one discards the interpolated sections of Josephus' text, there is nothing there that disagrees with the four Gospels. Let's look at them:

  1. A wise man.

  2. A doer of wonders.

  3. He drew many followers.

  4. He was condemned by Pilate at the behest of the Jews.

  5. He was executed on a cross.

  6. His first followers did not foresake him.

  7. Christians exist.

  So those of you that wish to jettison Josephus on the basis of this, you have to justify your position to jettison this text better in my mind.

  To the original poster: what sort of proof are you looking for? Are not the documents of the New Testament enough? When you put all the manuscripts and fragements for the New Testament together you have eight times more manuscripts and fragments than the next eight most historical books of antiquity put together.

  You have the testimony of Paul, who was a violent opposer to Christianity, yet had an encounter with the resurrected Jesus, and became Christianity's greatest theologian and missionary.
• 

  Narkissos

  XJW(4EVR):

  The interpolator had a rich idea using caps and orange...

  (Serious translation): the extent of the interpolation is debated indeed, but there is no positive evidence of any paragraph concerning Jesus.

  Now, even if you retain the hypothesis of a partial addition and that the words in black are indeed from Josephus (which I doubt), you are still left with another non-Christian presenting his version of the story he has received from the Christian community. No independent testimony (same for Suetonius, Tacitus, Pliny etc.).
• 

  XJW4EVR

  the extent of the interpolation is debated indeed, but there is no positive evidence of any paragraph concerning Jesus.

  Narkissos, not according to everything I have read, granted I have not read every single tome on this matter, however the ones I have read all seem to agree on what is interpolated and what is not.

  Now, even if you retain the hypothesis of a partial addition and that the words in black are indeed from Josephus (which I doubt), you are still left with another non-Christian presenting his version of the story he has received from the Christian community.

  It is clear, that the text in black matches Josephus in style and vocabulary. The description of Jesus as a "wise man" does not fit any Christian description of Him. Josephus refers to Jesus' "astonishing deeds" whish id the same terminology he used to refer to the miracles Elisha performed. Josephus' use of the term "tribe" for Christians is never found in any Christian literature of the time. Secondly, Origen, has clearly stated that Josephus was not a believer in Jesus. Therefore, I do not believe that your ascertion that Josephus recieved this from the Christian community stands.
• 

  Shawn10538

  Snowbird,
  Why do you bother with trying to "prove" or show evidence of Jesus' physical existence? You have already stated very clearly on this forum that you believe because of faith, not evidence. It seems more likely to you that if the Bible said the earth is flat, and it did by the way, as well as saying that the stars were pinned to a canopy draped over the earth, it would be true, not because it is true, but because the Bible says it is true. With that kind of rule of thumb for sensing reality you might as well stop opening your eyes in the morning and start plugging your ears because they are liable to deceive you. Only the Bible makes truth according to you it seems. everything else be damned.
  
  What need have you of Josephus then? Why do you cling to Josephus as if the existence of your lord depended on his testimony? You are obviously already familiar with him. Why? You have the Bible. It is God's infallible word. You need nothing else. You do not need reason, logic, vision or any other senses but what is required for you to "read" the Bible. Braille should be suficient. You don't want any senses that might deceive you into thinking the Bible is wrong do you? The Devil is very tricky after all. If your eye makes you sin it is better to poke it out right?
  
  It seems that the whole of Jesus' existence is hinging on this one dude, Josephus. If the entire existence of Jesus hangs on the word of Josephus, then God must have been using Josephus in a much grander way than any Bible writer. He used Josephus to prove the existence of his son. Wow! Josephus is one important dude to Christianity. It all comes down to him apparently.
• 

  snowbird

  To Whom It May Concern:

  I'm not trying to "prove" anything.

  Chenoa asked for non-Biblical evidence and I pointed her to the link about Josephus' testimony because it deals with the question of whether or not the integrity of his writing has been compromised.

  It doesn't matter to me how anyone else views this; I'm sure Chenoa is fully capable of deciding for herself if the evidence is "solid."

  Sheesh! What is it about Jesus of Nazareth? For a Person who purportedly never existed, He certainly brings our the fangs.

  LOL.

  Sylvia
• 

  Narkissos

  Josephus was not a believer in Jesus. Therefore, I do not believe that your ascertion that Josephus recieved this from the Christian community stands.

  Non sequitur. Even if the passage were original to Josephus the very mention of a Christian group would imply an awareness of this group (remember Josephus was contemporary to the Christian community, not Jesus) and its foundational narrative. All the author would have to do is selecting from this source and rephrasing it from a "non-believer" perspective (btw, all the conjecture about a partial interpolation rests on the subjective assessment of what a "non-believer" would be likely to retain from the Christian narrative). In any case it would still not stand as an independent witness to a historical Jesus (and, as I said, this applies a fortiori to 2nd-century Roman writers).
• 

  hillary_step

  The reality, and this is a very hard one for any Christian to accept, is that there is no reliable non-Biblical proof that Jesus Christ existed.

  The Romans were fastidious in their record keeping and the reigns of Augustus & Tiberias Ceaser were no exception. The reason that we know so much about everyday life in the Roman Empire, and this includes Palestine, is because of the existence of these records which catalogued everything from the price of eggs, to the strength of earthquakes.

  The brief mention by Tacitus, Suetonius and Pliny the Younger of a figure who is interpreted as being the Biblical Christ, is in itself almost evidence that the Biblical Christ did not exist. The reason that I state this is that no unique 'supernatural' attributes are mentioned as attributable this person at all, and it this most certainly have been mentioned. His personage is mentioned so briefly by these Roman historians that no reliable evidence can be garnered from what they say. The 'evidence' of Josephus, is as has already been established tenous to say the least and has to be viewed as equally unreliable.

  Now, given that Roman historians were so meticulous in their record keeping, it has to be asked as an example, why an event that according to the Bible resulted in the masscre of hundreds of newly born children throughout Jerusalem and its surrounding areas is not in these records. It would have been if it had happened. The Romans were very superstitious. Another example. When, according to the Bible Christ was crucified, their were various supernatural phenomena that accompanied this event which are not noted in the records.

  These are just a couple of examples which evidence the fact not only did Jesus, as the Bible paints him, not exist, but that the 'miracles' in the Bible are a later addition to its text.

  Now, numerous non-Biblical Jesus Chrestus existed in Palestine. Numerous loonies claiming to be the Christ were an everyday event in the lives of the Jews, as they are now. No doubt some person claiming to be the Christ of the Bible was the foundation for the religion of Christianity, but he certainly does not fit the Biblical view of the man.

  HS
• 

  chrisjoel

  No solid proof found as of yet. Although the chance he was a mythical figure arising into the current thought of the time is highly likely, something else can also be said for the fact, that , there were no churches or christians meeting in "caves" or private unknown places but, then, all of a sudden there were. Was it the myth that carried these actions forward or was it a person?