Jerry Bergman on JWs destroying library books (page 4)

garybuss

You wrote: the fact is there is no hard evidence on many of these issues.

There's no hard evidence for one single thing I write. Guess I been wasting my time huh?

slimboyfat

Well on a discussion board it's great to share experiences; but in papers and monographs with scientific pretensions not such a great idea, at least not without serious corroborative data.

I wish we had reliable data about mental illness and suicide rates for JWs. It would be fascinating to know. But it's just not available at the moment so far as I can tell.

There was a suicide in our congregation this week incidentally, (and it's not the first in recent years) so this issue is not alien to me.

dinah

About seven years ago I was at my local library looking for Crisis of Conscience. They had it in the card catalog, but the book was nowhere to be found. Go figure.

You would think since you have to have a library card, they could at least trace who didn't bring it back.

yesidid

We have donated at least ten copies of COC and ISOCF to the local libraries and they are continually stolen.

I don't think the local Catholics would be doing it.

steve2

You wrote: the fact is there is no hard evidence on many of these issues.

There's no hard evidence for one single thing I write. Guess I been wasting my time huh?

Um, no actually, you seem to miss the point cwhich is: Don't dress your sincere claims up in scientific language and try to pass them off as rigorous, peer-reviewed research.

Jerry Bergman's observations and interesting claims should stand or fall by themselves. In his "seminal" 1977 "paper" he could not even advance a consistent definition of mental illness. On one page he talks about depression among the witnesses, whilst elsewhere he talks about psychotic illnesses. He also fasils to consider alternative hypotheses for his too-eager conclusions. Good scientific research faces up to alternative explanations for research findings.

Anyone with even a rudimentary knowledge of psychiatry cannot help but see glaring holes throughout his work. The lack of a clearly-stated research design alone would be an embarrassment to a 101 psychology student, let alone a man claiming to have already obtained his PhD.

I have absolutely no desire to defend the Watchtower Society; but I deplore attempts by its critics to seize almost anything that looks remotely scholarly to use against the religion.

Burger Time

I'm still very skeptical of this. Perhaps the issue is magnified because there really isn't much on JW's so when something does get destroyed it's more drastic then would be for something like Catholics. Perhaps the temperament has changed since the 80's but I have known some whacky JW's as we all have and again I have never heard of anything like this. Just doesn't fit most dubs M.O. for me. As I stated before I think the problem is a the least a mix of some fundies thinking the books are pro-JW and just destroying some of them. Who knows though? I aint ruling the dub destruction of library books completely out.

steve2

It sounds to me more like unwitting fundies confusing them for pro JW books. I have never heard of JW's going to book stores to destroy books. Not saying it doesn't happen but just doesn't fit the JW style.

I'm with you, Burger Time. First JWs are accused of never reading let alone touching books by apostates. Next thing, self-appointed scholars like Jerry Bergman, strongly imply the JWs not only physically remove these books from libraries, but also destroy them. Anecdotal accounts of JWs "confessing" to destroying library books are alarming though. An earlier poster disclosed that a JW elder told other JWs this is what he does. Did the other JWs report him to the authorities or caution him about his behaviour? They should have.

garybuss

You wrote: you seem to miss the point

Thanks for pointing that out. I actually doubt that I've missed very much. Debating with anonymous shoot in the dark and run critics tends to bore me. You have zero credibility and I doubt you are a doctor. If you'd like to discuss credibility with me, you can start with revealing your name and resume so I can check you out.

For the sake of shadow boxing, Blood Transfusions by Bergman is presented as an evaluation of the issues and an exposition of the Bible's teachings on blood. I think that's what it is. I like it. Which page makes the claim it's a scientific work? I'd like to know so I can mark that page in my copy.

Jehovah's Witnesses and the Problem of Mental Illness by Bergman is presented as research, analysis, and recommendations. I think that's what it is. I like this one too. Which page in this book makes the claim it's a scientific work? I'd like to know so I can mark that page in my copy too.

How about you supplying a list of your books on these topics so I can compare your work with Bergman's? Can you supply that list?

steve2

You have zero credibility and I doubt you are a doctor.

I have not mentioned my doctoral dissertation in any of my discussions on Jerry Bergman. My profile on this forum outlines my progression from leaving the JWs until the present time, including my receiving my PhD and subsequent receiving a Diploma in Clinical Psychology.

My questioning of Jerry Bergman's written work has never stood or fallen on any claims I have made about my own doctoral dissertation or clinical practice. To reduce this discussion to a demand that I now reveal my name would place me in a no-win situation, given that many members of my immediate family, including minor children, are still in the witness organization. I hope that, one day, especially when my children have reached an age in which they can make up their own minds about their religious beliefs, I can use my name.

steve2

Which page in this book makes the claim it's a scientific work? I'd like to know so I can mark that page in my copy too.

Any written work claiming that a specified group has a greater incidence of mental illness among its members compared to the "general population" is using the language of social science research. It doesn't have to say explicitly "This is a scientific work". Jerry Bergman made such a claim about the witnesses in his 1977 article.

In some of my earlier posts I have said that people are entitled to their views on whether or not there is more mental illness among the JWs than in the general population, but to be aware that there are agreed-upon research-design methods that may confirm or disconfirm such a hypothesis.

A second point I have made on more than one occasion is that a sound argument always allows for the possibility of more than one reason for a research finding. E.g., in the event that a properly conducted survey established that JWs did have a higher incidence of mental illness than the general population, there are at least 3 explanations for this finding, each of which would deserve elaboration. Specifically,

1. That the Watchtower causes people to become mentally disordered.

2. That people who are attracted to the Watchtoweer are more likely to have been mentally disordered before they became witnesses.

3. That the stress associated with belonging to a minority religious group such as the Watchtower has caused people to become mentally disorderer; that is, belonging to a persecuted and marginalised group may increase the likelihood of mental illness.

There are no doubt other plausible hypotheses which, as yet, have not been subjected to social science scrutiny.

Jerry Bergman on JWs destroying library books

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