To: Rev B / Trinity vs Salvation

by Amazing 22 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Abaddon

  Interesting (ish) debate.

  I am an atheist, but am interested in discussing the Bible to a certain extent.

  One great fascination is the character of god as expressed in the Bible; I study Literature, and as an atheist view the Bible as just another book, but obviously god is a key character in it, and in any work of literature the personality, character and motivation of key figure is interesting and can be studied by the explicit content of the text.

  Of course, the theists may consider I have no right to do this as an atheist 8-)

  In debates over whether Jesus is or is not god, or whether there is or is not a trinity, the first question I think of is, if Jesus was god why did he not explictly say so?

  To me the idea he wouldn't clearly say he was god clashes with the expressed desires of god elsewhere.

  However, the expressed desires of god as a whole within the Bible seem inconsistant; one minute he's wiping out entire tribes (apart from the virgin (i.e. pubescent and pre-pubescent girls) who were made slaves, and punishing children for their father's actions, the next he's saying child sacrifice is unthinkable, and that he desires that none are destroyed. But, just answer the first question for now!!

  Why did Jesus not say "I am YHWH. See the miracles I do? That's a small sample! But I'm not here to do miracles, those are just to validate who I am, and to give a foretaste of things to come. I am here as when I created mankind they rebelled, so, to make up for mankind's disobedience, I've come to Earth to live and die as a human so I can 'clean the slate' of this rebellion".

  But there is no such statement. Why the obscurity?

  Now to rev I have a specific question; you say;

  'russellites' don't go from door to door. They know all will get a resurrection, as all are victims of sin and that the faith isn't for all people under these conditions of the world.

  This sounds remarkably inclusive and reasonable. What else do Russelites believe? Not that I am buying, but comparative religons is another area of interest...

  People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...
• 

  Rex B13

  Hi Abaddon,
  I wish you had read my links. In them they discuss the OBVIOUS fact that Jesus did claim to be God, Yahweh (I am) in the flesh. He did not say He was the Father, but from the Father and one with the Father, showing His separate personhood.
  The jews expected a divine messiah, the O.T. predicted it, Jesus claimed to be the Son of God and proved He was God with the miracles, the displays of God's abilities and with His resurrection. The early Christians worshipped Jesus, used His name equal to the Father and even baptized in His name alone!
  My dear, you must break away from the rationalism you learned as a JW if you are going to truly understand the Book. ;-) You don't have to believe it but you can very well learn to interpret by comparing scripture.
  Rex
  Rex
• 

  Rex B13

  This is an explanation of Jesus' deity from my friend, Gus.
  ______________________
  Yes, a christian receives Christ as savior but the redemptive act is central to the Christian tenet.
  The blood shed was by Christ whom was God and the scriptures make this clear.
  Acts 20:28:Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

  What was central to Christian doctrine was that God came in the flesh and dwelt among men and suffered man's penalty for him. That Only God whom alone is perfect could redeem man spiritually and physically. Take this away and you take away the redeeming value of Christ's sacrifice. Other Jesus' just will not do and this is why the apostle Paul condemned other Christologies.

  2 Cor. 11:4-For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear {this} beautifully.

  This is the gospel that the I AM came to his temple in the flesh and sacrificed himself for all mankind. The True Lord the Jews were seeking had come in a greater glory than the shekinah glory of the wilderness.

  Mal. 3:1-Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear
  the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming," says the LORD of hosts.

  Zech.12:10-10 "I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep
  bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn

  The 'one whom they have pierced' and we see similar wording in Revelation 1.7.
  This is the gospel preached and taught by Paul the apostle and Jesus the Christ.

  Jesus made it a salvation issue when he stated:

  John 8:24-4 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am {He}, you will die in your sins."

  I am he who? Jesus repeats again that they will know he is: the I AM! This is the term God used to answer Moses' inquiry in Exodus 6.2. God had been known to Abraham as El Shaddai, then as Yahweh to the Israelites.

  verse 28 So Jesus said, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am {He,} and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.

  The claims of being the monogenes (only-begotten) Son of God and the I AM brought cries of blasphemy on several occassions. Paul said those preaching another Jesus and another Gospel were anathema. We should not bear well with these ones as 2 Corinthians admonished us!

  Galatians 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
  7 which is {really} not another;only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But
  even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be
  accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you
  received, he is to be accursed!

  Today we have preachers teaching 'another Christ' in spades. We have Mormonism which teaches that all MEN can be Gods. We have Jehovah's Witnesses that deny the transformation of Jesus' physical body to a spiritual one, then have the audacity to say our savior is NOT GOD but only the highest ranking angel! We have 'Oneness' Pentecostals who deny the trinity. We have Catholics that want to elevate Mary, the mother of Jesus, to a co-mediator and the list goes on with false teachers too numerous to mention.

  An exclamation of Jesus being the Only begotten Son of God and Lord is an exlamation of deity. If we look at these terms as how ancient Christians did, we will realize such admissions are nothing less than belief that Christ is true deity. He is almighty God clothed in flesh. An admission to Jesus as Lord is tantamount to an admission that Jesus is Jehovah. The early Christians saw it that way. Recent evidences indicate that the nomina sacra was used for Christ's name even in a manuscript finding of the gospel of Mark and Mathew that dates to as old as 42 C.E. Suggested readings for this evidence is in Mathew D'Ancona and Carson Thiede's books entitled, "The Jesus Papyrus" and "An Eyewitness to Jesus."

  That is as good an explanation as any if you don't want deep, theological explanations.
  Rex