JFK Assasination

by Big Tex 51 Replies latest social current

Big Tex

Howdy Terri.
so you have a tape of that whole Cowboys-Vikings game? Cool.
DVD actually. There's a lot of the old games floating around out there, but it's an expensive hobby. Still a lot of fun, I love watching those old games, and old commercials.
I take nothing away from the Vikings. Personally I think the '73 team was better but that '75 team was bad news. The only thing was Minnesota had such a predictable offense that when a team could move on their defense, it was game over. Look at the Miami and Pittsburgh Super Bowls.
The Vikings' forte back in the 70's was their opportunistic defense, and it regularly set up the Viking offense in good position. That's the way the Vikings won in those days, even though the other team's offense would often outgain their offense in total yardage. Points are what mattered. I remember a couple of playoff games where the Rams outplayed the Vikings but lost because the Vikings made the big defensive plays. So what you're seeing on tape was their regular m.o., and it won them a fair number of games.
Yeah I know what you mean. The '74 and '76 Championship games are what you're talking about, especially '74. Too bad the first half is gone from the '76 game. Doesn't exist anymore. And I can't get anyone to trade me the '74 game, I'd love to see that again.
Now if Los Angeles had a real quarterback, a Pro Bowl caliber QB, I think they would have taken Minnesota once or twice.
The Mud Bowl ('77) was a lot of fun to watch. Rams should have destroyed Minnesota that day, Tarkenton was out but they choked big time. I've seen that game several times and I still don't know how the Vikings won!
Of course, I expected you'd defend Drew Pearson. You're a loyal Cowboys fan! Anyhow, you can't say the Cowboys didn't get a "fair call", because on that play they got that at the very least.
Well okay, but don't get me started about Lynn Swann in Super Bowl XIII!
Chris
Sunnygal41

don't mean to take over this thread, but, just wanted to share a very moving poem I just found at this site: http://www.whitehousehistory.org/08/subs/images_subs/whitehousehistory_19.pdf
Riderless Horse
by Robert Hazel
From Andrews Field you ride into the Capital.
A Guard of honor escorts your sudden corpse
down an aluminum ladder.
Your widow stalks your body through an avenue
of bare sycamores, and one answering bell,
leading heads of state to altar and precipice.
On the birthday of your son, your widow
walks bars of a dirge on the pavement
towards fountain and abyss.
Among swords of sunlight drawn by the spokes
of the caisson
and the white manes of horses, she walks
into noon and midnight.
Above the muffled drums,
the high voice of a young soldier
tells the white horses how slow to go
before your widow and children, walking
behind the flag-anchored coffin---
and one riderless black horse dancing!
TD

I'm a hardcore skeptic, not a conspiracy nut by any means.
But as a shooter, hunter, reloader, amateur gunsmith and former EMT, there are still nagging questions for me regarding the JFK assasination.
Most of them boil down to the movement of the President's head as captured on film by A. Zapruder and the morphology of his injuries.
Oswald fired a 6.5mm Carcano. Briefly, the 6.5X52mm cartridge is slightly less powerful than the more familiar American 30-30, giving a nominal MV of 2200 fps with a 165 grn bullet. Besides it's relatively low power, the single most striking features of this cartridge are the unsusually high sectional density of the bullet (Ratio of diameter to length) and its thick copper jacket.
(I apologize if what follows is overly graphic...)
You can put a watermelon on a fence post and shoot it with a 6.5X52 cartridge / FMJ bullet combination. The melon, won't get knocked off the fence post. It won't even jump. All you'll get is neat clean 6.5mm holes that look like they were punched with a cookie cutter. This is typical of non-expanding, slow moving bullets, with high SD's They do not transfer their energy to the target.
One of these bullets passed through the chest cavity of Governor Connally. This certainly had the potential to be a lethal shot as it was within what is considered to be the kill zone in human beings (Again I apologize if this is too graphic.) The Governor didn't die, partly due to the actions of his wife, Nellie, but mostly due the fact that the bullet punched a neat, clean 6.5mm hole in him with very little in the way of hemorrhagic shock and other collateral tissue damage. The Governer was actually propped up in bed, giving an interview very soon after the incident. This is entirely consistent with being struck from behind by a slow moving, monolithic bullet.
You can put a watermelon on a fence post and shoot it with anything in the centerfire 22 family (e.g. .223 Remington, 220 Swift etc.) and get very different results. These cartridges fire extremely fast moving, often soft-nosed bullets with low sectional densities. The watermelon will likely break into pieces and even when it doesn't, a chunk will be knocked out of the exit hole the size of your fist.
The movement of the President's head (Frames 307-330) and the nature of the cranial damage were not consistent with being struck from behind by a slow moving, monolithic bullet.
I don't have an alternative explanation, because I'm not a conspiracy nut, but I'm not the only one to think that efforts to explain this discrepancy are weak. Firearms expert Massad Ayoob has made similar observations.
(Edited to add) I'm aware of the vitriolic debate on this issue and those that want to compare wounds inflicted by a 30-30 to those inflicted by a 6.5X52. --Means nothing if they're not comparing bullet type to bullet type
metatron

I think that most people who speculate about the assassination need to visit Dealey Plaza in person. I was stunned at how small the whole area is. You hear people talk about a grassy knoll and you think that a huge football field is involved. It ain't so.
I don't see how anyone could fire a second rifle anywhere nearby and not be noticed. On the other hand, Europeans like to say that the US is the only country in the world in which every assassination is done by a lone gunman.
metatron
james_woods

Did the Europeans mean to say "aside from the Archduke Ferdinand", metatron?
Big Tex

I'm a hardcore skeptic, not a conspiracy nut by any means
Yeah that was me TD. I bought into very few conspiracy theories. Personally I thought Oswald was involved in some way, there was a second gunman on the grassy knoll and the government found out about it afterward and covered it over. But now I've had nearly every question answered, at least to my satisfaction.
Most of them boil down to the movement of the President's head as captured on film by A. Zapruder and the morphology of his injuries
Yeah I hear you. That was me as well. I was going to post Zapruder frame 312 and 313, but I think it is too graphic (especially 313 as that is the moment the bullet hits Kennedy's head). Google the images and you'll see what I'm about to say. Kennedy's head moves forward 2.6 inches, when measured against fixed objects (such as the door handle) between the two frames. Then, presumably from the bullet's exit and resulting damage, slumps backward.
Additionally, if the shot had come from the grassy knoll, the shot would have been almost at a perfect 90 degree angle. I've been there several times, and the fence is so close you wouldn't believe it. If the bullet strikes at that angle, Kennedy would have been forced to the side, on to his wife's lap, rather than backward and then slumping over.
Finally, there are autopsy photos (again google) that show the back of Kennedy's head is intact, but the right front portion is expose and partially gone. Consistent with an exit wound. I respect your gun knowledge, as I know nothing about them, and I really don't think it matters what kind of bullet hit his head, at that point it would be fatal irregardless.
As for Connally, I'd recommend watching "Unsolved History", I referenced earlier in the thread. They very painstakingly recreated the scenario, using the same make of weapon, same bullet type and used soft tissue dummies (the kind that are created and used for accident recreation and investigation) to determine if that bullet, fired at that trajectory could pass through soft tissues (as that is critical to the single bullet theory) and emerge intact. Their bullet did.
My understanding is that damage to Connally was mainly internal damage done by the bullet. But I'm glad you mentioned soft-nosed bullets. One reason we can know that Connally was hit by Oswald is the Mannlicher-Carcano is a military weapon (Italian WWII). That weapon required jacketed bullets. The damage done to Kennedy and Connally by the one bullet is consistent with a hardjacketed bullet, rather than a soft nose bullet as a soft nose bullet would have dispersed causing far more damage to both men, most likely fatal with the one bullet.
I think that most people who speculate about the assassination need to visit Dealey Plaza in person. I was stunned at how small the whole area is. You hear people talk about a grassy knoll and you think that a huge football field is involved. It ain't so.
Yep. And the echo. Sound reverberates there more than people might think. It really is quite small.
XJW4EVR

I read this thread yestday, and last night on the Orange County PBS affiliate Bugliosi was being interviewed about this book. So this morning I stop by Barnes and Noble on the way to work, and see that it is a huge tome. I am going to check this out at my local library later this afternoon.
Big Tex

Yeah it's a booger to get through. Although I really think the first part, the timeline he provides (which goes on for several hundred pages by the way) is absolutely fascinating. Let me know what you think of it.
Chris
TD

Big Tex:
....very painstakingly recreated the scenario, using the same make of weapon, same bullet type and used soft tissue dummies (the kind that are created and used for accident recreation and investigation) to determine if that bullet, fired at that trajectory could pass through soft tissues (as that is critical to the single bullet theory) and emerge intact. Their bullet did.
.One reason we can know that Connally was hit by Oswald is the Mannlicher-Carcano is a military weapon (Italian WWII). That weapon required jacketed bullets.
You hit the nail on the head here. Soft nosed and hollow point bullets deform into a mushroom shape inside the target. That's why they knock out a chunk of whatever they hit when they exit. The reason for this is that they're substantially larger when they exit than when they enter. As you observe above, we know this didn't happen in the JFK assassination. One of the bullets was recovered almost completely intact with minimal deformation.
Here's the bone of contention
The damage done to Kennedy and Connally by the one bullet is consistent with a hardjacketed bullet,
It doesn't seem to me that the fatal shot was at all consistent with an intact bullet with a full metal jacket. These bullets usually leave neat, clean entry and exit holes.
But as you observe:
Finally, there are autopsy photos (again google) that show the back of Kennedy's head is intact, but the right front portion is expose and partially gone.
The massive ejection of tissue from the exit would can clearly be seen on the Zapruder film. One of the officers in the motorcade compared it to being hit with wet sawdust. This is not consistent with a bullet that emerged intact. It's much more consistent with a bullet that was larger when it exited than when it entered.
In an effort to answer this discrepancy, there are "experts" that compare the wounds inflicted by a 30-30 to those inflicted by a 6.5X52 because both catridges propel bullets of comparable weight at comparable velocities. (These comparisons are usually based upon photos in the book, Gunshot Wounds: Practical Aspects of Firearms, Ballistics, and Forensic Techniques. DiMaio, Vincent J.M.: Elsevier Science Publishing Co., Inc., New York, NY; 1985)
-- Problem is the 30-30 is a hunting cartridge, not a military cartridge and as such it is loaded with soft-nosed bullets 99.9% of the time.
Big Tex

The massive ejection of tissue from the exit would can clearly be seen on the Zapruder film. One of the officers in the motorcade compared it to being hit with wet sawdust. This is not consistent with a bullet that emerged intact. It's much more consistent with a bullet that was larger when it exited than when it entered.
Exactly, and you're right. The explosive nature of that wound is consistent with an exit, rather than entry.
But the autopsy doctors in Bethseda that evening, could not find the bullet that entered Kennedy's upper back. They thought it must still be inside the body. So they ordered full x-rays. Those x-rays showed no bullet in the body, but did show massive fragments in the brain and skull area.
*********************WARNING GRAPHIC DESCRIPTION************************
Additionally, there is an autopsy photo that shows the back of the head was intact, a very small entry wound, as well as the flap of skin hanging to the side exposing the brain.
I don't pretend to know guns nearly as well as you, so I'm not going to make any statements about how Oswald's bullet is supposed to have behaved.
What the wounds and photos do show though is the bullet clearly entered the back of the skull and exited the right front in an explosive manner. What strikes me is, looking at the angle of Kennedy's head (remember he was leaning forward and slightly to his left toward his wife) is that perhaps the bullet struck the skull at an angle and then broke apart trying to exit the skull and when it did so, it did it in a scattershot manner? I don't know how else to explain what happened.
Chris

JFK Assasination

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