Why the Word or the Son of God?

by J.WITNESS 24 Replies latest watchtower bible

J.WITNESS

Peace be with you!
In the following Watchtower article: http://www.watchtower.org/e/20050915/article_02.htm
we read:
Jesus inherited no imperfections because he did not have a human father.
And another article ( http://www.watchtower.org/e/ti/article_05.htm ) says it clearly that Jesus was no more and no less than a perfect human, because that, i.e. a perfect human, was needed to be the ransom, according to the article:
Jesus, no more and no less than a perfect human, became a ransom that compensated exactly for what Adam lost—the right to perfect human life on earth. So Jesus could rightly be called "the last Adam" by the apostle Paul, who said in the same context: "Just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive." ( 1 Corinthians 15:22 , 45 ) The perfect human life of Jesus was the "corresponding ransom" required by divine justice—no more, no less. A basic principle even of human justice is that the price paid should fit the wrong committed.
If Jesus, however, were part of a Godhead, the ransom price would have been infinitely higher than what God's own Law required. ( Exodus 21:23-25 ; Leviticus 24:19-21 ) It was only a perfect human, Adam, who sinned in Eden, not God. So the ransom, to be truly in line with God's justice, had to be strictly an equivalent—a perfect human, "the last Adam." Thus, when God sent Jesus to earth as the ransom, he made Jesus to be what would satisfy justice, not an incarnation, not a god-man, but a perfect man, "lower than angels." ( Hebrews 2:9 ; compare Psalm 8:5, 6 .) How could any part of an almighty Godhead—Father, Son, or holy spirit—ever be lower than angels?
So, if what is said in these articles is true, then it would be enough if Jesus was only a human born without having a human father. Anything more than a simple human would be against justice according to this last article, because God only wanted a ransom that can correspond to Adam's sin. Adam was not the Word of God. Adam was not the first-creation of God. Adam was not a supernatural being. Adam was only a human, and according to these articles, Jesus also must have been only a human.
My question is: Then what is the need to have the Word or the Son of God incarnated? Wouldn't it be enough to have a perfect human born without a father?
In Christ's Love,
J.WITNESS †
Robdar

My question is: Then what is the need to have the Word or the Son of God incarnated? Wouldn't it be enough to have a perfect human born without a father?
Sure, why not? Makes about as much sense as anything else.
I also wish I could figure out why pigs do not fly--they really, really want to.
Shalom aleichem.
Robdar

Oh, and one other thing: Welcome to the forum.
Robyn
Gopher

The WT Society's view on this is that it took a "perfect" human to pay the ransom for what another "perfect" human -- Adam, had lost.
So then you go to the Bible verse that says 'can anything clean come out of anything unclean' -- meaning no perfect human could come from imperfect parents. So since God was supposed to be the Father of Jesus through the miraculous conception, that was supposed to be enough to overcome Mary's imperfection and produce a 'perfect' human. (I never fully grasped how Jesus could be perfect if his mother wasn't, but that's probably a thread of its own.)
Robdar

(I never fully grasped how Jesus could be perfect if his mother wasn't, but that's probably a thread of its own.)
Hi Gopher, the Catholics have an answer: Immaculate conception. Mary's mother was without sin and so Mary was without sin and so Jesus was without sin.
Makes about as much sense as anything else.
JosephMalik

My question is: Then what is the need to have the Word or the Son of God incarnated? Wouldn't it be enough to have a perfect human born without a father?
J. Witness,
It is not the Father or the lack of one that is the problem, but the life that comes from such a Father that matters. Where would you get it from? While we know that God is responsible for all creation we may not be fully aware that such creation was delegated to others such as the Word that was with God and literally created us at God behest. And this life received from him was specific to humanity and not any other creation. From this simple beginning this life now common to all of us would be reproducible and should have remained free from sin. But we know that: Ro 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. Why? Because of the importance of this life that God authorized the Word to give humanity. This authorization and its significance regarding human life is not really explained to us since we would not understand it anyway but we know this resulted from sin. The Word was the only other sinless source of this human life passed on to Adam. And this Word was the only source that could take Adam’s place. And now we know the rest of the story.
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. . . . 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
We are not talking about the life given to animals in these verses. The all things created by Him were all human things and redeemable. This is why John appended such verses to the genealogy lists given in the other Gospel accounts and completed them by identifying the very source of the life given to Adam at such a beginning.
Joseph
P.S. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
As a consequence this verse identifies the Word that was made flesh as the only begotten [human] of the father. No one else was delegated to do this. That the non-human Word before this was also a non-human Son of the Father was understood from other texts.
J.WITNESS

Peace be with you!
Dear Joseph, I quote you:
It is not the Father or the lack of one that is the problem, but the life that comes from such a Father that matters. Where would you get it from? While we know that God is responsible for all creation we may not be fully aware that such creation was delegated to others such as the Word that was with God and literally created us at God behest. And this life received from him was specific to humanity and not any other creation. From this simple beginning this life now common to all of us would be reproducible and should have remained free from sin. But we know that: Ro 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. Why? Because of the importance of this life that God authorized the Word to give humanity. This authorization and its significance regarding human life is not really explained to us since we would not understand it anyway but we know this resulted from sin. The Word was the only other sinless source of this human life passed on to Adam. And this Word was the only source that could take Adam’s place. And now we know the rest of the story.
The conclusion is that it was not enough to have a simple human born without a father, but we also needed something more, something more than a simple human life reproduced, even though that life is reproduced without a human father. Death reigned, so life was needed. So your reply clearly means that the things said in those watchtower articles are wrong, or at least they are inexact. But the author(s) is using that argument to disprove the Divine Nature of Christ... So that says something about the credibility of such articles...
The next thing to notice in your reply is that you built it on the fact that God created everything through the Word. So you added:
We are not talking about the life given to animals in these verses. The all things created by Him were all human things and redeemable. This is why John appended such verses to the genealogy lists given in the other Gospel accounts and completed them by identifying the very source of the life given to Adam at such a beginning.
According to this, the Son is the only other sinless source of life, because all things were created through Him.
First, it is not correct to say that the all things created by Him were all human things and redeemable. Humans are not things, and the Bible clearly says that the Son created everything:
"All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." ( John 1:3 )
And:
"in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world." ( Hebrews 1:2 )
And if we go to the account of Genesis, we see that God created everything, literally EVERYthing by His Word, by SAYING "Let there be", and we see that there was. So God created everything by His Word.
And the Watchtower article ( http://www.watchtower.org/e/ti/article_05.htm ) admits this when it talks about the meaning of the "only-begotten"; it says:
But these were all created through the "only-begotten Son," who was the only one directly begotten by God.— Colossians 1:15-17 .
So all things except the Son were created by the Son. And the article says that the Son was the ONLY one directly begotten by God.
Now, this is more than interesting when related to your argument about the Son being the other sinless source of life after God. Because God created everything through His Word, the only-begotten Son, and yet the Bible says that God created everything ALONE, without anyone helping Him:
"Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone" ( Isaiah 44:24 )
N.B.: In the "New World Translation", "the LORD" is "Jehovah".
If you compare it with the verses that mean that God stretched out the heavens by His only-begotten Son, you will understand who that "only-begotten Son" is, and what it means that He is the ONLY Source of life. So, in other terms, the Son is NOT the only one directly begotten by God in the sense of creation, as the above mentioned article is saying, but ALL things were DIRECTLY created by God ALONE, and the only-begotten Son is not a being SEPARATED from God the Father. The life of the Son is the SAME life of the Father, and the Nature of the Son is the SAME Nature of the Father, and no one of other nature than the Divine participated in the creation of all things and also in the Redemption or the new creation, because God says that He created EVERYTHING all ALONE.
For our Redemption, we needed the Life given by God who created EVERYTHING all ALONE. And that Life is in the Son by whom God created EVERYTHING all ALONE. The Son participating in that creation didn't add a new being to the Author of creation, because the Father and the Son are ONE, and not two separate beings. The SAME Being, the "I AM", YHWH created all things ALL ALONE.
Anything less than this Life could not redeem us.
So it was not enough to have a sinless human life without a human father, as the Watchtower articles are saying, but we need the Life of Him who created everything ALL ALONE.
In Christ's Love,
J.WITNESS†
JosephMalik

J.Witness,
J.Witness said to my comments: The conclusion is that it was not enough to have a simple human born without a father, but we also needed something more, something more than a simple human life reproduced, even though that life is reproduced without a human father. Death reigned, so life was needed. So your reply clearly means that the things said in those watchtower articles are wrong, or at least they are inexact. But the author(s) is using that argument to disprove the Divine Nature of Christ... So that says something about the credibility of such articles...
Joseph responds: Yes things said in such WT articles are wrong and I am not supporting them. What I am supporting is the things taught in scripture. The life that God approved for the human race came directly from the Word as no one else has such authorization from God who now rested, only the Word now carried the approved life source for the human race.
J. Witness said: The next thing to notice in your reply is that you built it on the fact that God created everything through the Word. So you added:
We are not talking about the life given to animals in these verses. The all things created by Him were all human things and redeemable. This is why John appended such verses to the genealogy lists given in the other Gospel accounts and completed them by identifying the very source of the life given to Adam at such a beginning.
Joseph responds: The WT and some others teach that God created everything through the Word but I do not. Everything is not being discussed by John who restricts his comments to redeemable humanity of all sorts.
Then you distort my comments by saying: According to this, the Son is the only other sinless source of life, because all things were created through Him.
Joseph responds. The Son was the only approved source of life for the human race. All things the way many understand this phrase is wrong. Such all things do not mean everything the way you imply. Such all things only apply to the humans our Lord came to redeem and this was clearly shown in the text.
J. Witness then said: First, it is not correct to say that the all things created by Him were all human things and redeemable. Humans are not things, and the Bible clearly says that the Son created everything:
"All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being."
( John 1:3 )
And:
"in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world."
( Hebrews 1:2 )
Joseph responds: It is both correct and scriptural to say that the "all things" are living human beings. That is after all what is being discussed and why. Humans are indeed the things of interest to this Son who did not create everything as you teach. Planets, stars, trees and animals are not being discussed by John. It is the world of mankind not the planet that our Lord created. With this Hebrews agrees even appointing this Son heir of such things in the world.
J. Witness said: And if we go to the account of Genesis, we see that God created everything, literally EVERYthing by His Word, by SAYING "Let there be", and we see that there was. So God created everything by His Word.
Joseph said: The Genesis account teaches that their were others involved with preparing this planet for habitation, some of which were delegated to specific tasks like the one the Word had toward the human race. The verses you use are general in nature and simply do not contain sufficient detail to support your claim. But Genesis teaches: 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. Who had the responsibility for the animals and creeping things is not stated but John affirms that the Word had responsibility for creating man in our image and after our likeness. It was this detail that concerned John who now traced this life to its creative source.
J. Witness said: And the Watchtower article ( http://www.watchtower.org/e/ti/article_05.htm ) admits this when it talks about the meaning of the "only-begotten"; it says:
But these were all created through the "only-begotten Son," who was the only one directly begotten by God.—Colossians 1:15-17.
So all things except the Son were created by the Son. And the article says that the Son was the ONLY one directly begotten by God.
Joseph responds: Such verses have been discussed on this forum many times. You have shown that the WT does not understand such topics and scriptures and with this I agree. How the Word and the angels themselves came into existence is not discussed in scripture.
J. Witness said: Now, this is more than interesting when related to your argument about the Son being the other sinless source of life after God. Because God created everything through His Word, the only-begotten Son, and yet the Bible says that God created everything ALONE, without anyone helping Him:
"Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone"
( Isaiah 44:24 )
Joseph said: You keep insisting that God created everything through His Word which is wrong. You have no valid scriptural argument for such statements. But once again the verse in Isaiah simply omits the finer details we are discussing here. In Isaiah the planet and not the world of mankind is discussed and with this I agree. This is another matter entirely which is also supported by other texts.
J. Witness said:For our Redemption, we needed the Life given by God who created EVERYTHING all ALONE. And that Life is in the Son by whom God created EVERYTHING all ALONE. The Son participating in that creation didn't add a new being to the Author of creation, because the Father and the Son are ONE, and not two separate beings. The SAME Being, the "I AM", YHWH created all things ALL ALONE.
Joseph said: This Trinitarian view has been refuted on this forum many times and the material already offered in this tread refutes it as well. It is based upon a corruption of simple words and texts taken out of context. The Word is with God in John and functioned in a creative capacity towards the human race. This is why the Word was also called God to this human race. This is also proper use of the term God in scripture as even humans were called God for similar reasons. Pasting words and phrases from other texts is the equivalent of rewriting scripture without regard to their true intent of context. And since you do not qualify as an inspired source for such manipulation this method is not valid proof for your claims
Joseph
JCanon

In this case, to understand what is meant, you have to COMBINE the details. How Jehovah acted alone, and thus independently in creation, yet we know the actual process was through Jesus Christ who is called the "WORD" because Jesus was connected with actually saying the words that created things.
The reference, therefore, for Jehovah doing something ALONE could be a reference to that aspect of which Jehovah was personally involved.
So conceptually to understand this, imagine that Jesus is like a round window of sorts through which Jehovah transforms energy into matter, as if he sticks his hands through the window to create things in a different dimension and the window into that other dimension is Jesus Christ. So imagine the window opens into a creation area where there are all kinds of elements and clay and everything. So Jehovah sticks his hands through the opending and then makes things inside this box containing the physical universe. So in his mind, he creates things himself and is alone in doing it because Christ's role is passive compared to Jehovah's active role.
So think of Jesus as a medium. A means to transfer energy into matter. Jehovah uses his spiritual essence to create things but he has hands on in the creation still.
Another concept that works is if you want to create a finger painting and you need a small child's hands to create this finger painting. So you find a 1 year old child and you hold the child's hands and dip it in the pain and you create this finger painting using the child's hands guided by you to create the painting. The child has no independant artistic input, his hands are just being used to create the painting, in fact, the child is unconscious when the painting is done. God would claim the painting was his and he did it alone.
Or actually, think of Jesus as just a pen. Jehovah picks up the pen and draws things. A person who draws things says that he alone drew something, even though a pen was involved. I alone drew these things with this pen.
What we do not conclude, however, is that there is any kind of a contradiction here, simply because Jesus was used in the creative process.
JC
JosephMalik

JCannon,
I explained all this already and it is not complex. Some scriptures teach that God created everytning, like the universe, the planets and major things like that. Such major items were beyond the capability of other creations by God so he acted alone. Then such others things like human beings, animals, plants and such were delegated to others also created by God like the Word for instance. We have no detail as to their order or who else was involved but we do know that the Serpent was controlled by someone else now know as Satan so this one had authority over them at such early times and could use them as shown in the texts. After sin entered into the picture then the gloves were off and mankind was controlled more directly by such other beings. Most make far too much out of simple words like "all things." They give it meaning not intended or supported in the texts and then pound it and pound it as if this expression could mean nothing else but everything just as you are still doing. But to a non human we are simply things for them to do under God command. There are other texts to confirm this and I covered them on this forum. Look at the texts carefully: John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. Exactly what beginning is John discussing? The beginning of the human race of course. This is what the commission given to the Word was from God when the Word was with Him. God gave this Word authority over man and now calling the Word God confirms this authorization as this is what the word actually means. Its use like this does not make multiple supreme Beings or Gods. Now: 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. When John wrote the human race was already diverse in both color and nationality. So this explains how all this came about to us. And now the big point made by John was: 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. Bingo, this is why the Word qualified for our redemption. Finally we learn: 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Nothing but the human race is being discussed by John and how we came to have such life. This life, this light, this energy came from Him, he was already authorized to provide it and now He would act in our behalf as a human being for our redemption. God acted and thus He became the only human actually begotten by God. There is nothing complicated, nothing hidden here, and thus John completed the genealogical record of our life all the way back to its source. What a great way to begin his Gospel.
Joseph

Why the Word or the Son of God?

Share this