Why the Word or the Son of God?

by J.WITNESS 24 Replies latest watchtower bible

JCanon

The beginning of the human race of course.
Hi Joseph. Nice seeing you. Hope all is well with you and family. Storm headed your way now, right?
Not "OF COURSE" here for me. I always thougt the "beginning" was when Christ was created. I always understood the angels were created before mankind as well and since those angels were apparently created THROUGH Christ, this "beginning" could possibly refer to the beginning of the spiritual world, the universe in general, or the creation of the earth. The Bible says at Genesis 1:1, "In the BEGINNING, God created the heavens and the earth."
So while I don't dismiss your application, it certainly can't be "of course" here as an obvious reference. As long as the beginning of the universe is not ruled out clearly, that remains a possibility.
JC
JosephMalik

So while I don't dismiss your application, it certainly can't be "of course" here as an obvious reference. As long as the beginning of the universe is not ruled out clearly, that remains a possibility.
JCanon,
Elizabeth passed away six years ago but the rest of the family is fine. The storms just brought a lot of rain and things are fine now, thanks. What I see in your work is that you do not quote and explain texts in detail but simply allude to what you think they mean. This way you can say anything without regard to context and intent and often support WT thinking. But nowhere do you show proof for such thinking and I have shown that the universe is clearly ruled out by showing what was meant. This is not simple insistence but was demonstrated from the texts. So we differ on this important point and the readers will have to determine what is really being taught. That is the way it should be anyway since all I try to do is give them enough information to aid them in their own research.
Joseph
J.WITNESS

Peace be with you!
Joseph, you simply despised the clear evidence of Scripture. If you don't believe the Word of God in whatever it says EXACTLY, then you are free to believe in imaginations.
The Word of God clearly says that God created ALL THINGS all alone:
"Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone" ( Isaiah 44:24 )
And the Word of God clearly says that God created ALL THINGS by the Word:
"All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." ( John 1:3 )
NOTHING that has come INTO BEING, and not only humans, came into being through Him. God created ALL THINGS through His Word ALL ALONE.
"By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, And by the breath of His mouth all their host." ( Psalm 33:6 )
"in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world." ( Hebrews 1:2 )
Now, concentrate on the following verse:
"For by Himall things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him." ( Colossians 1:16 )
Now, tell me: Do you think that humans were created both in the heavens and on earth, and that they were the ALL THINGS created both in the heavens and on the earth? Do you think that humans are visible and invisible? Do you think that humans are thrones and dominions and rulers and authorities both in the heavens and on earth?
So, dear Joseph, you need to accept the Word of God AS IT IS. There is no way to flee from the clear evidence of Scripture.
You said:
The life that God approved for the human race came directly from the Word as no one else has such authorization from God who now rested, only the Word now carried the approved life source for the human race.
God now rested? Only the Word now carried the approved life source for the human race? Well:
"nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things" ( Acts 17:25 )
So God did not rest as you said. The Lord Himself said it when He was on earth:
"But He answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working."" ( John 5:17 )
Not resting, dear Joseph.
So accept the Word of God AS IT IS. You need to believe ALL what God says, and not the things that you like in the Word of God.
Grace to you!
J.WITNESS†
JCanon

Hi Joseph,
Sorry to hear about Elizabeth. And I think I had known or heard about it but had forgotten.
The problem of whether Christ created the universe of not is directly related to John's statement that "All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence."
So with this statement, I was just saying, you can't get an "OF COURSE, NOT". You can get a "Perhaps, not" or "Maybe not" qualification on this. But not a slam-dunk, "OF COURSE" not.
That is, it is not overwhelmingly apparent that in this statement John isn't including the physical universe. In that general question as well, one I believes think that the heavens was created first, the angels, the spirit realm and then the physical universe afterwards. But as you cautioned, perhaps I shouldn't think that. The stars are thought to represent the angels though so it seems logical the reality came first.
Even in the Bible when it says, God created the "heavens and the earth" the heavens are mentioned first. So there is every reason to think the heavenly creatures were made before the physical universe. But certainly we know the earth was made after the angels because once made all the sons of god applauded.
Then there is the scripture that says that Jesus was the first-born of creation. Meaning the first thing created. So YOUR scenario suggests that God created the physical universe first (not the developed earth) and then he created Christ and through Christ he created the other angels. You base this on the reference that God was "ALONE" when he created the universe. But that's a take on whether "alone" really means without Christ or if he means he was unique in creating anything compared to the other gods, or even other angels. He is emphasizing that he ALONE is the creator, even if his mechanism of creation was THROUGH and FOR Christ.
Part of interpretation is CONTEXT. In one place the Bible says there is "ONE god" and in another place "MANY gods." Is this a contradiction? If you want it to be it is.
Interesting, you didn't point out that one reason Christ is called the "WORD" because the manner of Creation is with divine utterance. It is suggested that Christ was the sounding mechanism through which God created things. Sort of like word recognition software. Where you type in the words and then the computer converts that into a voice and thus it is the computer's voice you actually hear that becomes the physical manifestation. So Christ became known as the "Word" because he was the mouthpiece of God. The only thing God actually uttered himself were the WORDS to create Jesus himself, which is how he is the only-begotten sun. God used a "speaker phone" to communicate after that, and thus indirectly through Christ.
In the overall FAMILY PICTURE, technically, all the angels are God's grandsons and so in Adam. Christ is actually their father and thus is called "Eternal Father" in Isaiah. Christ is unique.
So it's just a matter of seeing your way past god creating things "alone" and still including Christ, which I've done for myself sufficiently, but then I'm quite creative in that regard as most will attest to. But I can't blame others for being stumped here, of course.
JC
J.WITNESS

Peace to you, dear JCanon,
The Word was not passive in the creation of all things. He said:
"My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working." ( John 5:17 )
In the account of Genesis, God didn't create all things with a passive Word:
"Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."" ( Genesis 1:26 )
So the Son is working with the Father in the work of creation.
The Word says about the Son:
"For He has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, by just so much as the builder of the house has more honor than the house." ( Hebrews 3:3 )
So the Son built the house, therefore He has more honor than the whole house, and not only Moses.
But the Word continues and adds:
"For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God." ( Hebrews 3:4 )
So God the Son built ALL THINGS.
And the Word also says ABOUT THE SON:
"And, "YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS" ( Hebrews 1:10 )
All the creation is the work of the Son's hands. He was not passive in creation. God created all things all alone through His Word who is not a being separate from God.
Be in Peace!
J.WITNESS†
JosephMalik

Joseph, you simply despised the clear evidence of Scripture. If you don't believe the Word of God in whatever it says EXACTLY, then you are free to believe in imaginations.

The Word of God clearly says that God created ALL THINGS all alone:
"Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone"
( Isaiah 44:24 )
And the Word of God clearly says that God created ALL THINGS by the Word:
"All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being."
( John 1:3 )
J. Witness,
We all came from a background such as yours where false teachings were crammed into our minds. And regarding this the scriptures taught: Ro 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. We were following the teachings of men instead of being disciples of Christ to our deteriment. Few have managed to escape the grip such men and teachings had over them.
What can be seen in your statements above is that you engage in word matching as if such words mean the same thing in every text. And in this case you cross languages as well. But you ignore what is being clearly discussed in the texts as if the context that I revealed to you does not matter.
In John 1:3 the all things means: AV-all 748, all things 170, every 117, all men 41, whosoever 31, everyone 28, whole 12, all manner of 11, every man 11, no + 3756 9, every thing 7, any 7, whatsoever 6, whosoever + 3739 + 302 3, always + 1223 3, daily + 2250 2, any thing 2, no + 3361 2, not tr 7, misc 26; 1243 And the text itself narrows the choices to human beings.
In Isaiah 44:24 the "all things" was an additive from: AV-stretch out 60, incline 28, turn 16, stretch forth 15, turn aside 13, bow 8, decline 8, pitched 8, bow down 5, turn away 5, spread 5, stretched out still 4, pervert 4, stretch 4, extend 3, wrest 3, outstretched 3, carried aside 2, misc 20; 215 In fact Youngs translates the verse this way: 24 Thus said Jehovah, thy redeemer, And thy framer from the womb: ‘I am Jehovah, doing all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself, Spreading out the earth—who is with Me? Doing and making all things does not mean the same thing as creating all things personally. The very verse you used explained that when it limited such personal involvement when it said: Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone" ( Isaiah 44:24 )All you had to do was to read it more carefully to understand that such personally involvement was limited to the heavens and the earth. Your view is also translation dependent and cannot be supported.
Now you also said: "For by Himall things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him." ( Colossians 1:16 )
Once again only human beings are being discussed by Paul. Here the word that Jews often used in place of the word God (heavens) was used for authorities both nearby (visible) and far away (invisible) and yet their influence was exerted upon them. Their function for keeping order and peace until our Lord returns is well known. Even Nebuchadnezzar was used for this purpose. And we know that; Ro 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
For this reason such humans were allowed ot exist and are then put on the same level as the faith over which our Lord is also head. So we get back to what has been drummed into our minds and held us captive to the men teaching it. You stated your views and thre is no need to bother with this any further. It has been discussed on this forum many times. Our situations are like this: Mt 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. Only when our Lord returns will we will know where we stand on such doctrines.
Joseph
J.WITNESS

Peace to you!
Dear Joseph, if your background is not biblical, this doesn't mean that my background now is not the Bible. I have given you the clear evidence of Scripture, and you opposed it with non-arguments. So I don't need to refute your answer. It is clear that you didn't answer, but you tried to show it as if I am teaching what I have been taught by humans, although I quoted the Scripture in a very clear way that even a little kid would understand.
But let me say some words about it. My friend, Jesus Christ is the incarnated Logos. God created all things through Him. If you don't give Him the place He deserves in your life, then you are living in rebellion against God. The case is that those who worshipped the creature instead of the Creator are those who didn't accept the Lordship of the Son, both in the times of the Old Testament and of the New Testament. I quoted the Scripture from Hebrews that clearly says that the Son created all things. He is the Creator. If you don't honor Him as the Creator, just as you honor the Father, then you are not honoring the Father at all:
"so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him." ( John 5:23 )
If you don't honor the Son with the same honor that you honor the Father, then you are not honoring the Father at all, and the text that you quoted from Romans applies to you.
And, interestingly, the same expression used about the Creator in the verse that you quoted from Romans, is also applied in the same Epistle about the SON!! Let me quote them together:
"For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen." ( Romans 1:25 )
"whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen." ( Romans 9:5 )
Satan tries to show it as if the freedom of Christ is slavery, and that you need to escape its grip...
The text of Isaiah 44:24 is very clear. Even if you take it in the form of the question, it clearly says that no one was with God while making all things from nothing ( = creating ) .
Now, what you said about Colossians 1:16 is simply without any meaning, because humans don't have authorities and dominions in Heaven. And humans are not invisible and visible both in heavens and on earth... Let me show you what are these rulers:
"For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him." ( Colossians 1:16 )
"For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places." ( Ephesians 6:12 )
And the text of Colossians itself says it clearly:
"When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him." ( Colossians 2:15 )
All spiritual beings in the heavens were created through the Son and for the Son, even the authorities and rulers who later became rulers of the kingdom of darkness.
So I wonder why you left the text of Colossians while explaining a text from Colossians, and you preferred a text that speaks about human authorities and rulers on earth. The text of Colossians is talking about rulers and authorities in the heavens and on the earth.
Joseph, it is very dangerous to wait until the Lord comes for judgment to know whether you were in the truth or not. The Bible says that TODAY is the day of Salvation. If you don't believe in Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, you are lost forever. Then, it is of no use to know whether you were right or wrong.
"that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved" ( Romans 10:9 )
You need to confess Jesus as Lord in order to be saved. He is the Lord whose Name saves:
"And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD Will be delivered" ( Joel 2:32 ) N.B.: "the LORD" is "YHWH".
"for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."" ( Romans 10:13 ) N.B.: "THE LORD" is Jesus Christ: "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved." ( Acts 4:12 )
Be in Peace!
J.WITNESS†
JosephMalik

"For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places." ( Ephesians 6:12 )
J. Witness,
Once again you use a verse improperly as this text in Ephesians that you quote is not talking about world governments as Col 1:16 was.. It is talking about those with high office in the faith (like James) teaching false doctrines such as keeping the Law for salvation. This plagued such Gentile Christians for many years. Paul struggled against them for over 40 years and they nearly had him killed him because of this. 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. 7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them. Such children of disobedience and wickedness in the heavenly places were Christian Jews still keeping the Law and insisted that Jews should as well. Along with this came other Jewish traditions they enforced. He warns: 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. That is what is Paul is talking about to these Gentile Ephesians.
This is another example of Trinitarians using seeming similarities and word matches in texts instead of trying to understand what Paul is really teaching.
Joseph
J.WITNESS

Peace be with you!
Dear Joseph, all of your replies are based on human assumptions.
First of all, who told you that Colossians 1:16 is talking about world governments? Are world governments invisible and in heaven?? It is you who want to change the meaning of that verse and passage by making earthly governments heavenly dominions of darkness.
Another example of your assumptions: If by James you meant the author of an Epistle in the Bible, then I warn you to be careful not to oppose God's Word. James never taught in the Bible that Salvation is by keeping the Law.
And after that, you imagine things about Jews or Christians who wanted to be saved by keeping the Law, and you imagine that these are the heavenly dominions of darkness. Dear friend, Jesus said that those who do evil are the children of Satan. They are not the dominions and the rulers. I already quoted for you about who are those rulers. So take your time to read them carefully.
The Holy Spirit understands better than you what Paul is teaching in the passages. So you need to read the Word of that Spirit in order to understand what is being said, instead of going to your own personal imaginations. And I see that you have a large imagination that always wants to oppose the clear meaning of the Scripture.
Be in Peace!
J.WITNESS †
JosephMalik

Another example of your assumptions: If by James you meant the author of an Epistle in the Bible, then I warn you to be careful not to oppose God's Word. James never taught in the Bible that Salvation is by keeping the Law.
J.Witness,
Sure he did. And he tried to force the Apostle Paul to do the same thing. Acs 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. This nearly resulted in the death of Paul and such so called Christians tried to kill him afterwards which forced the Roman Guards to rush him out of the city at night.
And your understanding of how Jews used words like heaven, and such reveals a training not supported by scripture. This does not surprise me as I have been through them many times. At least this should refresh the memory of many here who have been through the same things in their lives before they finally rejected the teachings of men to become disciples of Christ.
Joseph

Why the Word or the Son of God?

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