thanks for being with us jehovahsheep!
Google, Apple & how Next Gen INTERNET will DECIMATE the Watchtower Society
by jwfacts 45 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
-
-
jwfacts
Wow, what amazing comments.
Hi Sass - yes that is my baby, he is gorgeous (if I may say so myself).
Steve - The word decimate is a bit sensational, but by the same token the distribution of information via the internet is having a marked affect on growth, not least in preventing people joining the religion. JWD statistics do tend to support what you say. Of the 1 million JWs that have left in the last 5 years, only about 30,000 are registed with JWD. As you mention , Apathy is equally important as the out-of-date 1914 doctrine becomes ever less relevant.
Besty - Great insight. One of my great fears on leaving was that I would never have friends and be lonely (a fear inculcated by the Watchtower). Social networking sites open the eyes of Witness kids to how large, social and friendly the world is. If there were myspace and dating sites when I originally wanted to leave at the age of 25 I think I would have been far more likely to have overcome my fears.
Slimboyfat - Very interesting. I think it is a blessing that the Apostate cause is weakening. Apostates are painted by the Watchtower as bitter, crazy, nutcases. Picketing and running conventions, whilst necessary at the time, supported this picture of bitterness in the minds of Witnesses. The internet allows apostates to have their say and move on quickly and with less trauma, appearing more normal to their former peers.
Regarding how people fade rather than discuss their doubts, that is often at the recommendation of boards like this. Should we be recommending people go out with a bang instead? I think the fade is better, as it allows continued contact over years. Hassan's Freedom of Mind recommends chipping away with subtle, constant contact as the most effective way to help a person leave.
The Governing Body could use the Internet to their advantage, using it to broadcast their message and market themselves. I think they are just too lazy and out of touch to bother, preferring to stick with the methods that used to work. They are too used running what is described in economics as a "cash cow" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BCG_growth-share_matrix). However, now that the finances are no longer pouring in and the company has moved into the matrix of "dog", they cannot sit on the methods of the past for long term viability.
The main weapon the Watchtower has on its side is human weakness. Most of my still active JW friends question the doctrine, but do not left for fear of needing to be told what to believe. Most of the older ones will not leave, but I expect a tipping point. Like a snowball, there will be a point whether the momentum reaches critical mass and a large number of younger ones will collectively realise that Armageddon is not just around the corner and leave, not wanting to waste any more of their lives.
-
sweet pea
Steve2 - agreed apathy is the 800lb gorilla. Our challenge is to light the blue touchpaer of apathy to ignite a fire of action. No mean feat but that is whats there for us to do. I have friends who I know for a fact couldn't give a sh*t for the WTS but are trapped by family ties etc.
Randy - love the idea of designer communities living together because of shared interest - maybe lack of drinking water might be one shared interest in the future - kinda MadMax perhaps...
This is a great thread - for me it opens the question around how jwfacts dogpatch and Simon can get their act totgether and work as one.
We need a joined up approach to truly unleash Web 2.0 on the Borg....
-
jwfacts
opens the question around how jwfacts dogpatch and Simon can get their act totgether and work as one.
What makes the internet great is that individuals can achieve a lot, and the spread of different sites with differing approaches to offering information on the WTS reaches the different personalities of active JWs. However, the independance of exJWs also makes it difficult to afford to reach the broadest audience.
We need the more effective websites to be easier to find. A google search on terms related to Watchtower topics will bring all manner of results. Many of the top results are poor quality sites, regularly with inaccurate or unrelated information. Sadly, at the end of the day it comes down to money. To build a professional, interactive site requires qualified web-designers, money spent constantly on search engine optimisation and paying for banners and google adwords. Some clever statements on banners would be effective to bring curious JWs to websites, but the cost would be astronomical to have any reach.Traditional advertising is even more expensive. I had considered a street sign outside the last Sydney district convention listing some websites, but the cost was $10,000!
One way others can help is to link to good ex-JW websites on blogs and sites such as answers.yahoo.com. The more links there are to a website the higher it will rank on the search engines.
-
Nick!
Hi friends,
These few notes directed to those who are skeptical about what is already going on in the WTS.
I understand that in the US you or your congregations elders can download WT magazines for the WT study directly from the Internet.
In Switzerland, the Society has gone even further.
You can listen (no video for the time being ….) to the meetings either via a phone call (kind of conference call) using a telephone number provided by the congregation, or via the internet, using an internet website where all congregations who have already adopted the system store their recorded meetings which you can download in MP3.
The recorded meeting include the songs, the prayers, the conductor of the WT study (or conference speaker) and … even all the comments made by the participants.
I have heard myself one of the meetings and recognized those participating and the conductor, as their names are also used during the recording, and … I do recognize their voices.
Of course, if you don’t know the website, and if you don’t have the password provided by the congregation which meeting you want to access, you are not given access.
But same as I had the “secret” information about the access data, anyone who is friend to someone who attends the meetings can easily get access to the recorded meetings.The internet is the Society’s biggest nightmare!
They simply loose all control over it, no matter how protected their information is.Keep the good work going!
-
slimboyfat
Well thanks for the more considerate response than last time I posted my view:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/100638/1.ashx
I guess that is partly down to the fact I toned down the "semi-apologist" rhetoric a bit this time I must admit. Maybe I have learned a little bit since then.
I would still argue the Internet is really a mixed blessing for opponents of the Watchtower Society. Far from heralding the end of Jehovah's Witnesses, it is not even all good news. The tendency of apostates on the Internet to "fade" rather than talk to Witnesses locally about their doubts indicates one major drawback, and actually inhibits the spread of dissention.
Besty says he prefers thousands of faders to 27 local defectors. I would ask: where are you getting your figures? Besty's other comments about the Internet are fascinating and well beyond my ken. I will watch developments with interest. It was also good to hear you mention Anne Sanderson Besty. She is a very kind lady I have met a couple of times in the past few years. But I was honestly not aware that so many others left at the same time she did in Falkirk. From what she told me even her sister and her mother in law stayed with the Witnesses.
I agree with Steve that apathy is more important for a WT downturn that apostasy. On the other hand world conditions do have an effect on the viability of religions in general and the success of sects with apocalyptic tendencies such as Jehovah's Witnesses in particular. If we are heading for a period of economic downturn, war and general instability, then that may well boost JW growth to an extent that far outweighs any downward pressure from the Internet.
-
besty
1st things 1st - the post just above by SweetPea was made by me logged into her account - the dangers of owning two identical laptops...(so much for Web 3.0 if I can't even master a JWD account)
jwfacts - agreed specialist knowledge + money would go a long way to optimize the sites that are already live. I'm sure that both exist in the ex-JW community - the question is how to effectively harness the distributed resource of thousands of active ex-JW's. I agree that different styles of websites appeal to a variety of people. I think we can share resources without losing that. Like a media company that owns multiple websites all sharing the same datacentre infrastructure, as a poor example of what I mean.
So one mini-project I intend to develop is a multi-website custom search engine that helps people to quickly and easily find relevant information from the wealth (overwhelming maybe) of content on sites like www.jwfacts.com and www.freeminds.org. Randy tells me he has over 5,000 documents on his website now. Effective search is a big part of the puzzle IMHO.
This search engine can be found at http://poddy1.blogspot.com/ - I've shared it with quite a few JWD'ers already and the feedback has been complimentary. Compare the results from a general Google websearch for '144000' to using the custom search....
SBF - I checked your earlier post of a similar nature and you were definitely presenting an alternate view to the received wisdom...LOL. I think it fair to say the consensus view is that the Internet is working for anti-cult groups more than against them. In terms of numbers of faders jwfacts is the expert here.
Sidepoint - I used my own search engine above 'how many have faded from the witnesses' which returns http://www.jwfacts.com/index_files/statistics.htm - it seems to work. Good.
If you look at the section on that page called Percentage that stopped publishing compared to number baptised it should tell you all you need to know about numbers that are fading. there are thousands fading every year yet we don't hear many big bang apostasies - correct me if you disagree but I think the Falkirk incident would have been all over JWD if such had existed back in the day. So today we will quickly find out whats going on. Example - recent KH bombing in Kansas - posted on JWD within an hour or two of it happening and then Lady Zombie is getting the inside story as she is local to the area, and then all shared globally, instantly to a defined special interest group.
(Anne Sanderson's sister and brother-in-law are still active JW's in Falkirk, along with their son and his wife. Not sure about the old mother - she might be 'brown bread' by now - she was mad as a hatter. When I was in Falkirk Anne's sister Pam + husband Ron were great company - a really nice couple. Shame they are still trapped.)
On the other hand world conditions do have an effect on the viability of religions in general and the success of sects with apocalyptic tendencies such as Jehovah's Witnesses in particular. If we are heading for a period of economic downturn, war and general instability, then that may well boost JW growth to an extent that far outweighs any downward pressure from the Internet.
I really don't see a mass conversion of white middle class people to JW'ism or other high control groups, even if shock horror they lose their job and get their house repossesed. In times of hardship the lower orders of society suffer the most so even if an end-times cult becomes more popular I have a fair idea that the recruits will not be economically significant to the WTS.
The Internet is ubiquitous and its influence will pervade all social transactions including the decision to join a new religious group or not.
-
Dogpatch
SBF says,
I would still argue the Internet is really a mixed blessing for opponents of the Watchtower Society. Far from heralding the end of Jehovah's Witnesses, it is not even all good news. The tendency of apostates on the Internet to "fade" rather than talk to Witnesses locally about their doubts indicates one major drawback, and actually inhibits the spread of dissention.
I guess it depends on the goal.
Is it getting people out of the Watchtower?
Improving their personal condition whether inside OR outside the Watchtower?
or Destroying the Watchtower?
How "mixed of a blessing" depends on that goal. To me it is all positive. Well financially it sucks! :-))
My goal has been to educate people to improve thier lives. For the first 13 years of my ministry I worked to help create a better understanding of the process of canonization, orthodoxy vs. heresy, and revealing to the closed-minded JW that the Watchtower's precious "facts" are about as sound as Scientology nonsense, from both a historical as well as a hermeneutical standpoint. Starting in 1993, when I quit pastoring my church to focus more on the mind control issues and cult education, almost all of my articles, both on the internet and in the Free Minds Journal, were on the subject of cults and mind control. I held about 8 classes to the general public on weekends on the subject of cult mind control. Some of you were in the audience, this was 1988-1991. Steven Hassan taught a class on learning how to exit-counsel with me in the early 90s, and we had another class a few years ago out here in LA.
Now, for 2008, I have fulfilled all my previous goals regarding doctrine and Christian education, have worked well with hundreds of churches in many countries as well as ex-JWs, have built up an international platform of interested persons, and I am desirous of taking it to the next level in general public education. I am not the smartest person in the world but I work long hours and have an active mind. Almost all my strength comes FROM MY FRIENDS. I am nothing but a toady. They called me TOAD MAN in high school I was so awkward. :-))
SBF says,
On the other hand world conditions do have an effect on the viability of religions in general and the success of sects with apocalyptic tendencies such as Jehovah's Witnesses in particular. If we are heading for a period of economic downturn, war and general instability, then that may well boost JW growth to an extent that far outweighs any downward pressure from the Internet.
You are right, but the crappy Watchtower won't be a viable alternative to many people in the 21st century within a few short years, save backwater hollers. This is 19th century snake-oil religion is attractive to ALMOST NO ONE who has any education nowadays. Think Christian Science? Hello?
More attractive and kewl apocalyptic cults are in order.
Maybe I'll start one. Let's see...
a little SALTPETER,
half-blind seer
tacky magazines that discuss your pet's "stool"
nooooo....
we need sumthin; NEW!!
Mad Max is kindas cool but UNSUSTAINABLE...
FuDogz
-
Dogpatch
ON FUNDING, SUPPORT AND COMMUNITY IN THE FUTURE OF THE NET
Ok I',m Nostradamus today. Foo of the day. Here's my prediction.
I said earlier: More networking, communities, artificial families, perhaps even physical communities comprised of persons of common interest, say theme housing. :-))
I'm being sarcastic not not unrealistic. Don't forget, I have had extensive background in working together in interfaith across large platforms of church denominations, even those opposed to each other. Churches are ALTERNATE FAMILIES. Churches will be around forever! Belief in God isn't even necessary, at least as far as our traditional format.
AA is a lesser but well-known example of a similar community that address the LOWEST COMMON DENOMINATOR of society. I was assistant pastor of a church (Hope Chapel) in Venice, Calif. in the early 80s after Bethel and we pooled our funds and started a halfway house for the homeless, which was also a "prefab" family reaching the LOWEST COMMON DENOMINATOR, the "disadvantaged and temporarily down and out in society."
But there are all levels of churches! Regardless of denomination. Churches plan their attack on a community according to DEMOGRAPHICS nowadays. They actually count the cost of bulding the structure, approximate tithes to expect fom a CERTAIN MIX OF A CERTAIN TARGETED INCOME tax bracket. In other words, they are actually FAMILY PLANNING! They choose what types they want in the church.
So there have been "designer families" with us for quite some time. Poke your head out in the world and get an education on people, communities, and demographics. Work with non-profits! They are not as $$$ motivated, more idealistic than some other groups.
With JWD (and Thank you Simon for your major contribution to our lives), we have a really 2.0, or as Besty said, 1.5 phenomena, with nearly 30k registered reader/contributors in a virtual community. AMAZING. I attribute that to the moderation and background cooperation, as far as I can tell. The mods aren't so heady that you can't bitch at them once in awhile either. As in a church, that makes for a more comfortable community. Which leads me to the subject of funding and "leadership," which kind of go together.
I predict that, just as is happening now, our current forms of social networking via schools, families and churches will be radically altered in the next few years. It is upon us already, we just can't catch our breath to see it. For those of us who are older, we close our eyes so as not to get dizzy and feel irrelevant. :-))
Funding attempts to help others on this forum as well as many others I have seen are largely ineffective and almost useless as far as I've seen. Working through churches yields about the same results. WHY? The model of giving must change soon. Charity will be redefined. "Non-profit" will be reassessed, just as with what happened to MacGregor Ministries in Canada recently.
I think the key is to do things in a way that really doesn't require much money at all! It is possible. All that's needed is a handful of idealistically-minded and aggressive persons, who don't have a problem working with others, and can roll with the punches from each other and from outsiders. A thick skin is needed. SIMPLE AS THAT. GET YER MODULAR COMMUNITY ON, foos! :-))
[Fu]Dogz previously sed: Traditional families may be a novelty. Designer families will be in vogue, and ex-JWs will find a niche, I am sure.
Traditional families are already a novelty in many places. I live in a select surfing community of young people (aside from my 56-yr old self) where we all know one another, we all hang out, and we don't really go outside of our circles much for fun. Bring the wives/gfs/kids over and chill. That means more to us than anything. Good family, extended or otherwise, makes life worth it. Plus you have support and encouragement, laughter and tears, giving and receiving. Our church years ago was the same way.
Kingdom Hall could never tolerate it, because the community model is so old school, think TRIBAL, PATRIARCHAL, oppressive by modern standards of networking.
OPPRESSIVE BY MODERN STANDARDS OF NETWORKING
That is why the WT is dead in the water. Extremely poor social skills.
Unattractive, outdated, tacky preacher-type religion, you get the point.
Who would want to be associated with that, with all the new designer cults coming out?
NEW models of thought control will be far more sophisticated. Dawkins' Selfish Gene gives me clues on this. :-))
Genetic engineering will change the world as we know it.
Thought engineering will be the next big thing after that. And cloning yourself.
R
-
PaulJ
The countdown has started then... get some popcorn and watch the show!