NECESSARY LOSSES

by compound complex 37 Replies latest jw friends

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  milligal

  My humble opinion is based on my psychology major and studying abnormal psychology. While I'm no expert on this subject (although I hope someday to be able to say that I am : ) the topic of nature vs. nuture comes up when you are comparing notes on how people react to bad situations, including be abandoned by a parent.

  My point is simply that no matter what the author is projecting, and I'm sure she has a point, I was trained to challenge the idea that "nurture" or environment has more to do with a person's ability to cope or outcome in life than "nature" -a perspn's biological predisposition to be able to handle trauma.

  In other words, your life has less to do with what has happened to you, and more to do with your interpretation and reaction to what has happened to you. Does that make sense? I find this interesting...
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  compound complex

  Dear Milligal,

  Yes, this is most interesting, especially insofar as this is your field of endeavor! I am imagining that you (possessing what I perceive to be a humble yet intelligent perspective) would agree that the field of human psychology is hardly an exact science.

  
  In other words, your life has less to do with what has happened to you,
  and more to do with your interpretation and reaction to what has happened
  to you. Does that make sense? I find this interesting...

  Our new-found freedom of expression and inquiry - once so tyranically denied us - has led, I feel, to our reestablishing of an authentic self. I just got off the phone with a friend of 45 years; we were discussing this very issue. CoCo's core personality has reemerged and is going gangbusters trying to play catch-up. He is happy and healed from the pain of a childhood of poverty, unmentionable abuse and domestic violence. Religious tyranny came later.

  Never did I imagine the pain would be burned away by joy (see Nevergoingback's thread on J. Campbell's quotation).

  Thank you so much, Milligal!

  CoCo
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  Hortensia

  I'm not sure what my authentic self is really like. I think nurture has a lot to do with how we turn out. I think the violence, poverty, guilt and repression of my childhood had a lot to do with making me the shy, anxious person I am. You're right that getting out of mind control gives us freedom to find out who we are, but I don't think we can find out who we might have been if not for the damage done in childhood.
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  PrimateDave

  Firstly, about the Oedipus complex, I don't understand it. I have a good memory of childhood, and I don't recall having any sexual tension with either parent. I was always drawn to my mother, though, simply because she was the more accessible of my parents. My relationship with my father was always different, somewhat distant though present nevertheless. Still, I never felt as though he was in competition with me for my mother's attention. The first time competition entered the picture was when my sister was born, and the competition was with her for both parent's attention.
  
  On the issue of nature vs. nurture, I find the evidence for nurture to be quite compelling. I have done some reading on so-called feral children, children that passed significant amounts of developmental time away from human interaction. The more famous of these are the wolf children and gazelle boys, as well as Victor of Aveyron. Of course, the accounts of these children are far from scientific by today's standards, and much of the evidence is anecdotal at best. The more modern scientific studies involve rare, sad cases of extreme neglect. Even so, to me they represent the importance of nurture in creating a fully functioning social human being. Our biology is only half of the story. I like to think that our social evolution has had equal importance in making us what we are today.
  
  Dave
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  compound complex

  Thank you, Hortensia and Primate Dave:

  As to the so-called core personality, Hortensia, I was merely employing the term loosely in that I have gushed forth of late into a bewilderingly yet genuinely concrete state of emotional repose. My former manic-depressive (self-diagnosed) self is singularly melded into a stabilized and functioning whole. I appreciate your comments regarding your childhood.

  I must do more research on Oedipus and Electra, Dave, before even attempting a reply (as though my observations should prove significant! Ha!). Since Ms. Viorst's comments are based on her personal experience through research and time spent with her patients, there must be an observable commentary on this type relationship. I need to reread that chapter.

  I've never heard of feral children ... intriguing!

  CoCo
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  PrimateDave

  Try this link: Secret of the Wild Child
  
  Dave
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  Hortensia

  yes, I think the feral children, or children who are simply deprived of human contact, really prove how important nurture is. I think some of the stuff about feral children might be urban legend, but for sure there are and have been many children who are neglected and abused and starved for affection. The damage done can be irreversible. It's really painful to read about or see child neglect.
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  compound complex

  Thank you, Dave.

  Since clicking onto the link you provided re: "The Wild Child," I've been reading the article, utterly fascinated and saddened. What a find!

  Gratefully,

  CoCo
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  FlyingHighNow

  My mother was mentally ill. She did many things right and I appreciate her for those things. She was emotionally very distant. And she was always moody and often angry. She would fly into rages and beat to the extreme, at least one of her children a day. Yet I adored the ground she walked on. Sometimes when I was scared, I'd ask to sleep in her bed. And most of the time, she would let me. When I was at nursery school, I'd dream of running away to look for her.

  When mother was dying, I sat with her for several days. At the end, I held her in my arms as I watched the last glimmers of life leave her eyes. I watched as a peace came over her. We had been much closer in her last years. I owe that to a tremendous loving patience I had with her. I miss her. She died at 62. One therapist I had told me I had abandonment issues over both Mom and Dad. I had never thought of myself as feeling abandoned. But he was right. I thought about it a lot over the next months. All children deserve to have a closeness with their parents, especially their mothers. How sad that many never enjoy that.
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  milligal

  Primatedave-feral children are denied not only an emotional attachment with a parent, but emtotional attachments with anyone. They are denied physical nutrition, sun, and many times are sexually or physically abused in addition. They are treated like non-humans. They're sad outcome (usually death at an early age) cannot be solely contributed to denial of nurturing in the sense of a good parental relationship-rather brain function slows down and development slows down because they are not given the physical and mental needs. So, it's like saying that a person dying because they are starved to death is equatable to a person dying because they were beat as a child, but otherwise had a normal environment. These are different issues, "environment" cannot be tagged to physical needs not being met (causing trauma) AND emotional needs not being met (causing trauma).

  Compound-Actually psychology is a science, supported by evidence from both studies and physical outcome-CLINICAL psychology is not an exact science. There is a known gap between the science of psychology and the practice of it; for instance there was a study done by two psychologists on the outcome of childhood sexual abuse (I'm in a hurry to type this-will find it for you though) the factual outcome of the majority of children studied showed that people can and mostly do recover and go on to lead normal lives after sexual abuse. The study was so politically and socially incorrect, the two scientists were virtually flogged for stating the outcome. A clinical psychologist may know that a person can recover from sexual abuse, but their practice of psychology allows them subjective and discriminatory use of their skills to help a person reach their own goals......SO : ) I disagree, I see psychology as a provable science no less removed than medical science.