so the holy spirit is a person?
and a God?
does he / she have a name
show me a scripture
Has the WTBS ever explained the trinity?
by wobble 64 Replies latest jw friends
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Satanus
Tij
Casper. Check out the movie.
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wobble
Many Thanks to all who contributed to this thread, I really wanted to spark debate and feel that happened, I also wanted to establish the rather simplistic way that the WT approaches trying to de-bunk what it dosn't beleive in. I think opposing views deserve at least the respect of showing what they are.
I get the feeling that the WT does not want this,and many other doctrines to come under the microscope, as such examination shows up the paucity of their knowledge and the doubtfullness of ALL the doctrines unique to them.
Love to all,
Wobble
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wobble
I meant to add the question , do JW's/WTBS have a doctrine which is unique to them which IS correct?
Love
Wobble
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sacolton
The trinity can be explained like the triple point of water where it can be liquid, solid and gas at the same time. One element = 3 forms.
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sacolton
The Holy Spirit is a person ...
The qualifications for a person are that they have 1. A mind 2. their own will 3. and emotions, as personal human beings we all have these qualities all of these are qualities. Also a quality of being personal is that one has life. A person is identified as a self-conscious being, cognizant of its own existence and the existence of others who also have a self-identity. A will indicates the ability to think, to reason, a choice to act, having desire these are things we associate with self consciousness which is exclusive to Persons. All of these qualities the Holy Spirit has, just as the Son and Father. We find the Holy Spirit is the executive of the Father. He is co-creator of the universe, The author of divine Scripture, the generator of Christ’s humanity, the regenerator of the believer and the distributor of eternal life.
The Holy Spirit is identified as a Person by John, using in the Greek the masculine ekeinos in Jn.16:13.The Holy Spirit is presented as a personal being with a self-identity different from both the Father, and the Son. As the Father and Jesus make this distinction when speaking of Him. He the Holy Spirit says "Separate Barnabas and Saul to me;" He also is identified as "I" in Acts 13:2.
The Jehovah Witnesses Holy Spirit is not God, but a force like in Buddhism. But it was not always so, like all their doctrines they depart from any kind of semblance of orthodoxy. Lets look at how they describe a spirit being ,"Is the Devil a personification or a person? ... Can an unintelligent 'force' carry on a conversation with a person? ... only an intelligent person could. . . . 'Every quality, every action, which can indicate personality, is attributed to him in language which cannot be explained away."' (Awake 12/8/1973, p. 27) "Nothing in this and similar texts involves the thought of a personal Holy Spirit . . . (Studies in the Scripture , Vol. 5, p. 244)
The main purpose of the Holy Spirit was to come alongside the believer, to do what Jesus did when he was here physically, but mainly from the inside of us. He is called the comforter, this would be a hard thing to do if the Holy Spirit is an impersonal force. The helper paracletos is used for the Spirit in the NT. by Jesus. This was used in Greek almost always of persons. Here the Lord calls him our helper, one that comes alongside. Even with the other titles attributed to him this still does not change who he is behind those titles. He (the Spirit) says "separate Barnabas and Saul to me" he also is identified as "I" in Acts 13:2. If the Holy Spirit is an impersonal force as Jehovah’s Witnesses claim, or a mode as in Oneness Pentecostalism, then He cannot be another of the same kind. Jesus is a person, if the Spirit is another comforter this requires the Spirit to be a person also. How could He duplicate all the things of Jesus unless He is a person? The helper in Gr. paracletos, is used to describe the Spirit in the New Testament by Jesus. This was used in Greek almost always of persons. Here the Lord calls him our helper, one that comes alongside. When we speak of person it does not necessitate form but personality and identity.
Looking at the attributes of the Spirit we find no difference in His nature, function and communion with the believer than with Jesus. Rom.8:27 He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the spirit is, because he makes intercession for the saints," 1 Cor.2:11: "But the one and the same spirit works all these things dividing to each one as He wills. Acts 8.29: The Spirit spoke to Philip, "Go to that chariot and stay near it." Rev 2-3: "Let him hear what the Spirit says to the Churches" Rev 22.17: The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" If the Spirit is impersonal so is the Bride.
The activities of the Spirit are all descriptions of what persons do. Many groups come to the irrational and illogical conclusion that he is only a force used by the Father to accomplish his purposes. This power the Jehovah’s Witnesses claim is impersonal like an artificial intelligence that will accomplish Gods will in our lives. Romans 8.16: The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. To make the Holy Spirit something other than a personality a being (a force?) This means that we are indwelt with a human non personality. This means we have no inner nature that rules over our body, that all we are is our body just like the evolutionists say.
Paul uses the spirit Gr. pnuema as The masculine pronoun He , giving him identity. The Holy Spirit is portrayed as a personal being with an identity different then both the Father and the Son. He is identified as "I" in Acts 13:2.
As we understand that the nature of the Father and Son and Spirit have always been the same, they are all eternal. They all share in common the same essence, which is God. They also share in the divine name of Yahweh. All the attributes of God that are held in common with the Father and Son are shared also with the Holy Spirit.
He has omnipresence Ps.139:7-10 David writes whether he goes up to heaven or into hell below God is there, he cannot escape his Spirit. He is omnipresent, everywhere since he would dwell in every believer simultaneously.( 3 omnis are described in this passage omnipotence, omnipresence, omniscience all attributes of God). The essence of the Holy Spirit is that he is omniscient- all knowing 1 Cor.2:10-11: "For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God." Only God can comprehend God himself, he knows things of God and things we do not know of ourselves.
There are scriptures that refer to the Holy Spirit as being the "Spirit of Jesus", the "Spirit of Christ", or "Spirit of the Son" "the Spirit of the Father" If the Son and Father are persons then this certainly does not make the Spirit a non person.
Heb.9:14 he is called the eternal Spirit. Because he is in us, the Scripture equates him as God in us (Rom.8:9-10, 1Cor.3:16, 6:19, Jn.14:23, 15:4, 1 Jn.4:12-13,15) He is omnipresent since he would dwell in every believer simultaneously and he is called God 1 Cor.6:19. He is omniscient 2 Cor.2:10 "the Spirit searches the deep things of God." Only God can know the infinite things contained in himself. Luke 12.12: for the Holy Spirit will teach you at that time what you should say." I Cor. 2.13: "This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit," How is this possible without language or communication.
Rom.8:27 He has a mind (proving he is personal). Rom.15:30 he has love which only those with intelligence and personality express. Eph.4:30 he is grieved. Heb.10:29 he can be insulted. He can be blasphemed. Mt.12:32 Tells us all sins committed against the Son will be forgiven but the sin against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven. This certainly affirms he is neither a force nor a mere creature. Only an eternal sin cannot be forgiven, which means it is against the eternal God.
John 14.16: And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another comforter to be with you forever -- the Spirit of truth ."
John 14.26: But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
John 16.7: "But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you." Not it to you! To the disciples who were grieving, if the Spirit were an impersonal force it would no way comfort or replace a real person. Imagine saying don’t worry you’ll have electricity or a force!
Jn.14:26, 1Cor.2:13 He teaches us Gal.5:18, Rom.8:9 he is our guide. These are important functions of someone who is alive, with emotion and personal interaction. How can he do this for all believers unless he has the omnipresence and omniscience that God has. Rom.8:26-27 groans along with us, he intercedes for us to the Father ( this gives him personality and feelings) 1 Thess.1:6 he Gives us joy. He also hears from the Father Jn.16:13 and he is able to testify of the Son Jn.15:26. The Spirits role is to convince unbelievers of sin righteousness and judgment, this means intelligence. The Spirit is also attributed to being the author of Holy Scripture which gives him communication skills also part of intelligence. In Rev.14:13 we find the Spirit speaks from heaven saying "write." All these characteristics give personal identity to the Holy Spirit, which makes him a personal and distinct from the father and the Son.
In the OT. he is called the Spirit of the Lord (Yahweh) Judges 3:10, 6:34, 11:29, 13:25, 2 Sam. 23:2, 1 Kings 18:12 Isa.11:2, 40:13 He is called the Spirit of God (Elohim) Gen.1:2, 1 Sam. 19:20,23. 2 Sam. 23:2;1 Cor. 3:16, 7:40 the Spirit of our God 1 Cor.6:11, His Spirit Num.11:29, My Spirit Gen.6:3 Spirit of the living God 2 Cor.3:3, He is called the Spirit of the Father Mt.10:20. The Spirit of the Lord God Isa.61:1 If the Spirit is God (which he is) then his name would also be called Yahweh just as the Father and the Son are. Since they are all God they all share in common the same name. In the NT. He is called the Spirit of grace Heb.10:24, The Spirit of life Rom.8:2, of truth Jn.14:17, Holiness Rom. 1:4, Spirit of Glory 1 Pt.4:14 showing he has the same glory shared with both the Father and the Son. These are descriptive of his attributes which all three persons share in. He is called God 1 Cor.6:19. It is Paul that states we are the temple of God because the Holy Spirit dwells in us (Rom. 8:9, 8:11, 1 Cor.3:16, 6:19) 2 Cor.6:16 "For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: " I will dwell I will dwell I will dwell in them and walk among them and walk among them. I will be their God, and they shall be My people." If God says he will be in us, and it is the Holy Spirit in us, doesn’t that make him God? God is personal.
He speaks to man: Isa.6:8-9 "Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying: "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?" Then I said, "Here am I! Send me." And He said, "Go, and tell this people: 'Keep on hearing, but do not understand; keep on seeing, but do not perceive.' Paul in the NT. applies this scripture giving the credit to the Holy Spirit for saying it. The Isa.59:21 the Spirit gave the men the words.
Mark 13.11: Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.
Acts 1.16: and said, "Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through the mouth of David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus
In Acts 5 Peter confronted Annanias and Sapphira said you have lied to the Holy Spirit vs.3 he then says you have not lied to man but to God v.4 in reference to his first rebuke. Since Jesus said God is Spirit in Jn.4 this should settle any conflict. The Holy Spirit's work is evident from creation onward, there is no reason not to come the conclusion that the Spirit is God. He makes Jesus known just as Jesus made the Father known.
Acts 8.29: The Spirit told Philip, "Go to that chariot and stay near it."
Acts 10:19: "While Peter thought about the vision, the Spirit said to him, "Behold, three men are seeking you."
Acts 11:12: "Then the Spirit told me to go with them, doubting nothing. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered the man's house."
Acts 13.2: "While they were worshipping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."
Acts 28:25-27: "The Holy Spirit spoke spoke rightly through Isaiah the prophet to our fathers, "saying, 'Go to this people and say: "Hearing you will hear, and shall not understand; and seeing you will see, and not perceive; For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I should heal them."
I Tim 4.1: "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits
Heb.3.7: "So, as the Holy Spirit says: "Today, if you hear his voice."
Rev 14:13: "Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." "amen," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them."
Rev. 22.17: "The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" Both have intelligence.
All of these Scriptures prove that the bible upholds the Spirit as a personal being every bit as personal and intelligent as God.
The Spirit is also attributed to being the author of Holy Scripture which gives him communication skills also part of intelligence. In Rev.14:13 we find the Spirit speaks from heaven saying "write". All these characteristics give personal identity to the Holy Spirit which makes him a person. Rev 2-3: "Let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches" this is repeated 6 times after to each church.
It is the Spirit that brings one to recognize who Christ is. To fight and refuse this is to ignore the testimony of Jesus. If one thinks it is a force that that is revealing the Son, than this would automatically change who the Son is as well.
The Spirit has a different position functioning in a submissive role to Christ. Just as Christ was in a submissive position to the Father on Earth not acting independently. Likewise the Spirit does the same, taking a subordinate role to both Christ and the Father when he is sent to earth ( Jn.16:13). This is not a essential subordination of nature but in position and function. His purpose is not to bring attention to himself but to the Son.
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sacolton
I meant to add the question , do JW's/WTBS have a doctrine which is unique to them which IS correct?
Yes! In their own publication, they identify themselves ... October 8, 1968, AWAKE! actually got it right:
"True, there have been those in times past who predicted an 'end to the world' even announcing a specific date. Yet nothing happened. The 'end did not come'. They were guilty of false prophesying. Why? What was missing? Missing from such people were God's truths and the evidence that He was using and guiding them."
Does this describe any organization you know?
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IT Support
Do any of the Christians here know whether the Yahweh of the Old Testament is any part of the Trinity?
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leavingwt
Do any of the Christians here know whether the Yahweh of the Old Testament is any part of the Trinity?
Please be more specific. Are you asking...
- Whether or not one of us personally believes this to be so?
- Whether or not Trinitarians believe this to be so?
- Whether or not there is Biblical support for this idea?
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IT Support
Good questions!
Please be more specific. Are you asking...
- Whether or not one of us personally believes this to be so?
- Whether or not Trinitarians believe this to be so?
- Whether or not there is Biblical support for this idea?
I'm not sure if there is such a thing as 'orthodox' Trinitarianism, but I was asking what is generally understood by Trinitarians, whom I assumed (was I wrong?) would be the same group as those xJWs here who are now Christians.
I would also be interested in what Biblical support is available for the idea.