Why many "conspiracy theories" can be written off within reason

by Dogpatch 40 Replies latest jw friends

  • Dogpatch
    Dogpatch

    Well, first of all Gill, I apologize for Bush. Can't help you more with that one, mate!

    You are looking at the immediate scene, whereas I am looking at a larger frame of time. No help to us individually, perhaps, but as families and communities, yes.

    The Mugabes and Idi Amins have had their day, and like WT leaders with their petty tactics of bullying, will soon be gone. Probably after you and I are. :-))

    All a matter of economics, not morality. Social evolution. Everything is driven by $$$$ really, in the end, at least with humans.

    There will always be the same personal desire to control to the detriment of others, and there will always be the way to implement destruction and terror by such persons. But the METHODS will change, according to what is tolerated by others.

    That is assuming no future genetic "engineering" in the realm of our emotional motivations. :-))

    Life is really quite random in many ways. We look for meaning in numbers, tea leaves, world events, and so forth. Superstition dies slowly, but it is a natural part of the human story. It is not necessarily "evil." It's just there.

    I was quite pissed when I found out there was no Santa Claus. I WANTED to believe in him! If it were not for my slightly more educated peers, REGARDLESS OF THEIR MOTIVATION, I would still believe in Santa Claus. I NEED Santa Claus! I will start a war to PROTECT Santa Claus! Put that one up on Youtube nowadays. It will be almost as funny as seeing all the pictures of people dying and being swallowed up by Jehovah in "Paradise Lost, Paradise Regained."

    That's the point. It is just too tacky for todays world, at its current level of interaction.

    Now, a nuclear war or major earthquake could set up back a few centuries on the social interaction level, perhaps, and we would again see the Hitlers. That's the way life works.

    Randy

  • Dogpatch
    Dogpatch

    Tex sez,

    Gill I don't think any government on this planet is run by "nice people". I think the majority are self-serving, egotistical, and arrogant. The difference in countries depends on their competence. My country, for example, has been run for 8 years by an overgrown frat boy whose administration drove this country into the ground.

    Society is ultimately driven by enlightened self-interest. Religion calls it "selfishness," but it is the simple economics of all life on this planet. Those who don't follow this personal creed are usually idealists or those unwittingly or wittingly controlled by others who have learned how to play the religious or political meme to their advantage. :-))

    Randy

  • Gill
    Gill

    Randy and Big Tex - Take for example - Religion. Religion is one BIG conspiracy all with essentially it' s roots in early Sumerian, post ice age deluge civilisation. Our very belief structure of a vast proportion of 'believers' is wrapped up in ancient prehistoric beliefs and Babylonian origin traditions. NOthing has changed except a few names and places but other than that 'God' is still essentially getting killed, brought back to life and coming at some distant point to save everyone.

    Oral and written tradtions along with belief structures have kept this particular 'conspiracy' of control alive.

    The people are told to OBEY their leaders or they will not be SAVED when God / Son of God ...whatever, RETURNS.

    It is all about controlling the rif raff and rabble at the bottom of the pile with an intricate collection of deception and lie that spreads not just from and into religion but every other control mechanism.

    Don't use a big car........or YOU will be a bad person who is destroying the Earth.

    Don't put your rubbish in the wrong bin.....or YOu will be a bad person who is disobeying.

    You must obey the Govenment......they were put there by God......or you will be a bad person who is disobeying.

    Don't leave your standbys on ..... or you will be a bad person who is releasing CO2 and causing the world to heat up and kill every one on earth.

    Lie after lie and myth after myth are used to CONTROL.

    Do you remember how we were all going to die because of the HOLE IN THE OZONE LAYER.

    Then we;re all going to die because of CO2 EMISSIONS.

    Just as in the past we were all going to hell if we had sex out of marriage, or didn't give our last penny to the church.

    This is just the veneer of the conspiracy.

    Dig deeper and we find the rotton worms of murder, destruction, war, money dealings, fraud, deceit........

    So skull and bones are just a bunch of sweet hearts. But I don't think so. Too many of them have been in high office. Now that form of nepotism may be something you may not call a 'conspiracy' because they're not wearing black cloaks or having a black mass....but that's still a conspiracy.

    Going back to 9 / 11 tragedy, whether that is a conspiracy by govenment or not may be clouded by the possibility that the govenment 'allowed' some of the atrocity to take place and actually 'created' other parts of it.

    Doesn't stop it being a conspiracy.

  • What-A-Coincidence
    What-A-Coincidence

    People use the the word 'conspiracy' the same way the Watchtower uses the word Apostacy.

  • jaguarbass
    jaguarbass

    Hello Dogpatch, I'm not sure what your saying. If your sayiing if there was a conspiracy people would reveal it and you dont think they have. I suggest your not looking.

    The leaders of the US have and are conspirining to lead Amerika down a road that enriches the leaders pockets while taking wealth and energy from the US citizens.

    The Bush family do belong to secret societies that exploit the people of America.

    There is evidence that the Bush family worships the devil Moloch at a grove.

    If you choose not to see or aknowledge this evidence so be it.

    Everyone makes their world how they want it and sees what they want and is blind to what they dont want to see.

    If there is no God and their is no devil and we all evolved out of the primeval sea, their is still a lot of evidence that the recent leaders of the US worship the devil. And to me that is a conspiracy.

  • Gill
    Gill

    I agree with you Jaguar bass and would like to say that Moloch, the Devil etc don't even have to exist in reality for people to worship him / them.

    They conspire in such a way as to benefit themselves and those who help benefit themselves.

    Let's not forget that Prescott Bush made his money by financing the Nazis.

    These are the people you apparantly chose to rule you.

    But you'll never know for sure, 100% whether your country did choose these people or not. Money can buy silence.

    The way yours and my country has deteriorated and walked needlessly into senseless and cruel wars, in all honesty we have to admit that our govenments are the World Terrorists!

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    Randy..I`m with you on this..Let`s start a War,to protect Santa Clause!.....I own 500 shares of Rand Cam(It`s True..LOL!!)....The WBT$ and I will build Engines,to deliver bombs to their Target..We`ll blow the sh*t out of anybody that F*cks with Santa!!...........LOL!!....................Laughing Mutley...OUTLAW

  • Dogpatch
    Dogpatch

    I do not question the existence of conspiracies. :-))

    If you and I plan something behind Hazel's back to her harm, we are conspirators. Big deal.

    Perhaps to avoid rambling, I can narrow it to the most current internet discussions on the matter, relating to govenrments and secrets. Religion, wjhile often a conspiracy, introduces a few more complicating elements as well. :-))

    I said originally,

    ANYONE WHO THINKS THERE IS SOME CADRE OF MEN SOMEWHERE THAT CAN ESCAPE THIS PROCESS IS TOTALLY DECEIVED. That's it! SOMEONE will expose it, especially nowadays!

    Nowadays is the key. New conspiracies will, of course, develop and control people forever no doubt, but they will be significantly more complex than the current spate of rednecks. Backwaters, where information is not freely disseminated, will suffer a much longer paralysis. :-))

    I know it's hard to get my point because we look at history from our own perspective. Perhaps it is helpful to imagine one born in 2000 and how he/she will see it work out by 2100. People will remain basically the same. Rules of interaction and tolerances will be much different.

    Randy

    Perhaps CONSPIRACISM is a better word?

    Conspiracism

    A world view that centrally places conspiracy theories in the unfolding of history is sometimes termed "conspiracism". The historian Richard Hofstadteraddressed the role of paranoia and conspiracism throughout American history in his essay The Paranoid Style in American Politics, published in 1964.Bernard Bailyn's classic The Ideological Origins of the American Revolution (1967) notes that a similar phenomenon could be found in America during the time preceding the American Revolution. [6] The term conspiracism was popularized by academic Frank P. Mintz in the 1980s. Academic work in conspiracy theories and conspiracism presents a range of hypotheses as a basis of studying the genre. Among the leading scholars of conspiracism are: Hofstadter, Karl Popper, Michael Barkun, Robert Alan Goldberg, Daniel Pipes, Mark Fenster, Mintz, Carl Sagan, George Johnson, and Gerald Posner.

    According to Mintz, conspiracism denotes: "belief in the primacy of conspiracies in the unfolding of history": [7]

    "Conspiracism serves the needs of diverse political and social groups in America and elsewhere. It identifies elites, blames them for economic and social catastrophes, and assumes that things will be better once popular action can remove them from positions of power. As such, conspiracy theories do not typify a particular epoch or ideology". [8]

    Throughout human history, political and economic leaders genuinely have been the cause of enormous amounts of death and misery, and they sometimes have engaged in conspiracies while at the same time promoting conspiracy theories about their targets. Hitler and Stalin would be merely the most prominent examples; there have been numerous others. [9] In some cases there have been claims dismissed as conspiracy theories that later proved to be true. (for examples, see "Conspiracies vs. conspiracy theories") [10] [11] The idea that history itself is controlled by large long-standing conspiracies is rejected by historian Bruce Cumings:

    "But if conspiracies exist, they rarely move history; they make a difference at the margins from time to time, but with the unforeseen consequences of a logic outside the control of their authors: and this is what is wrong with 'conspiracy theory.' History is moved by the broad forces and large structures of human collectivities." [12]

    The term conspiracism is used in the work of Michael Kelly, Chip Berlet, and Matthew N. Lyons.

    According to Berlet and Lyons, "Conspiracism is a particular narrative form of scapegoating that frames demonized enemies as part of a vast insidious plot against the common good, while it valorizes the scapegoater as a hero for sounding the alarm". [13]

  • ninja
    ninja

    randy....norman mineta exposed it.....watch his testimony on youtube...why haven't we heard of this in the mainstream news?...ninja

  • Dogpatch
    Dogpatch

    to avoid getting too far off, my whole point was that "Occam's Razor" should dictate what we accept as "truth" or not. Courts of law base their deliberations on such timeless principles. It is easy to let the events of the day (as this provocative thread and the knee-jerk responses exemplifies) cloud our objectivity. Our view of people and the human race is a very large factor. To say that the leaders in the U.S. government or Gordon Brown or Robert Mugabe or whatever are selfish or greedy is no revelation. We all are. It's natural!

    It is quite ANOTHER thing to believe they want to intentionally bring harm to others AND that they are actively conspiring with other "evil" people to do harm. Some persons are like that. They are usually called psychotics, and are generally quite antisocial. They are capable of a lot of harm, but getting them to cooperate with OTHER psychotics is a trick that they can rarely pull off, because they are antisocial and difficult to work with. :-))

    9/11 was obviously a conspiracy of certain terrorists. Yes, conspiracies are dangerous, both at home in your house, in your neighborhood, and in the world. At any given time there are a number of people who want to hurt me for what I do. I am sure conspiracies have been plotted against me, Steven Hassan and many others. But human nature and Occam's Razor keep me from losing sleep over it. If the evil people are even half as bungling as I am, I will probably be safe. :-))

    Randy

    Wikipedia under "conspiracy theory":

    Validity

    Perhaps the most contentious aspect of a conspiracy theory is the problem of settling a particular theory's truth to the satisfaction of both its proponents and its opponents. Particular accusations of conspiracy vary widely in their plausibility, but some common standards for assessing their likely truth value may be applied in each case [citation needed] :

    • Occam's razor - does the alternative story explain more of the evidence than the mainstream story, or is it just a more complicated and therefore less useful explanation of the same evidence?
    • Logic - Do the proofs offered follow the rules of logic, or do they employ Fallacies of logic?
    • Methodology - are the proofs offered for the argument well constructed, i.e., using sound methodology? Is there any clear standard to determine what evidence would prove or disprove the theory?
    • Whistleblowers - how many people — and what kind — have to be loyal conspirators?
    • Falsifiability - Is it possible to demonstrate that specific claims of the theory are false, or are they "unfalsifiable"?

    The US academic Noam Chomsky contrasts conspiracy theory as more or less the opposite of institutional analysis, which focuses mostly on the public, long-term behaviour of publicly known institutions, as recorded in, e.g. scholarly documents or mainstream media reports, rather than secretive coalitions of individuals. [14] [15]

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