Hillary, the person benefitted from having personal interest shown in her. That could come from any good group. Her life is much better now, and if the group had been other than the WTS would be still better. If for example she has a child that a JW pedophile has molested, or if she ever has a grandchild to whom it happens due to the WTS policy of coverup, then you can see the other side on this too. So our objective in helping others exit the WTS is one of love, whether some have expressd it in what you call less than noble terms or not. The sword of truth with the shield of LOVE.
Attending WT meetings/functions
by Lee Elder 20 Replies latest jw friends
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ISP
I go to meetings very occasionally. I think I went to the Memorial this year...well thats one anyway! I am likely to go at sometime. Whenever I have gone..the hall have been fine. I am not DA'd or DF'd.
Not been to any funerals!ISP
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hillary_step
Anewperson,
Hillary, the person benefited from having personal interest shown in her. That could come from any good group.
Yes, but the point was that it did not. All the 'good groups' failed this person, but the JW's were the ones who gave this person some sort of life. As you can see from my post, I think it is valuable to remember that these issues are not always as simple as some XJW's think.
My note also demonstrates that I am well aware of both sides of this issue, especially the one that involves child abuse. Not every JW is a child molester, most repudiate this behavior and are unaware of the WTS damnable modus operandi for dealing with this issue. As not every JW is a child molester, not every Social Worker is either, but some have been.
Good and bad live within every established group, be it a religious, political of any other social group. We may not like deviant human behavior but it is as old as the hills. The WTS, like the Catholic Church a few years ago not handling the situation well, due to its own isolationist attitude, and believing its own PR.
Yes, people are eventually better off without the WTS, but you need to try to explain that to the 72 year old JW that I mentioned in my original post as well as those outraged by its excesses. Her situation is by far the more common within the WTS than child-abuse.
As to the motive for 'helping others to exit the WTS', the one you mention, of love for fellow man commendable, but again I would suggest that like the issues, often human motives are far more complex.
For example, would it be showing love or cruelty to dismantle the flawed belief system of an elderly JW? Victor_E, does make some valuable points.
Best regards -- HS
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Bang
It's never nice to see people imprisoned by anything. The girl spoken of changed to a different type of prison - in many cases people would still rather suffer in their body than live a lie - I suppose that's what christianity is about.
It's natural to want to tell the truth to JWs seen to be suffering the dreaded woe of hypocrisy (leprosy - outward whiteness and the flesh appears to be living). But it seems that the success rate for permanently curing leprosy is perhaps not as good as other afflictions, so I imagine their will be heartache in the job.
Bang
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anglise
HStep
I agree with you it might not be a kindness to undermine the cherished faith of a 70 year old.
But that is exactly what the JW'S are hoping to do everytime they knock on a door or informal witness or place a magazine.
There isnt any compassion or fellow feeling when any faith other then the good news according to Brooklyn is involved.
Those of us from dubdom can testify to the truth of this because we've all done it and seen very elderly and even infirm ones baptized having ungone the love bombing process to get them into the org.
The ones I can recall didnt really even understand what they were getting involved with.
I remember one elderly lady who had lead a very simple life getting baptized and yet still celebrating all the 'worldly' holidays and joining in with the communal bingo etc at the retirement home where
she lived. Until of course some busy body sister reported it to the local gestapo elders who soon put a stop to it, and then this elderly sister became quite isolated in her once happy and innocent environment. -
hillary_step
Anglise,
I agree with you it might not be a kindness to undermine the cherished faith of a 70 year old. But that is exactly what the JW'S are hoping to do everytime they knock on a door or informal witness or place a magazine..
You are preaching to the converted here! I understand this scenario perfectly and agree with what you say, but respectfully it is not the point at issue. Two wrongs do not a right, make.
I gave two examples of persons who had greatly benefited from having the WTS in their lives. One would probably have been dead by now due to drugs and prostitution, the other will be dead shortly due to old age. You would have great difficulty convincing them that they are in any 'prison', to coin Bang's phrase, at all. The situational sketch that Victor_E painted was one of there being little point in 'de-towering' such individuals, without in good conscience providing such ones with the support system that they need to survive. If we are not able to do this, we should leave well alone.
I have known many JW's commit suicide because they could not cope with their 'prison'. I have also known of some XJW's who have committed suicide because they could not cope with their freedom.
Best regards -- HS
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Pathofthorns
I think when your presence around JWs is extremely rare, they tend to almost feel bad for you and will 'love bomb' you. Even despite rumours of apostasy or whatever, when they see you again and you are pleasant and don't necessarily match what they have in mind when they hear the rumours, they are often pleasant in return.
I have found that elders who are often more informed, who are aware that you are beyond "help" are usually the coldest. The ignorant publisher who is usually too weak to be "in the loop" is just happy to see you again.
The whole key to any event where Witnesses are present is to be extremely polite and kind. Few people go out of their way to be rude. Many will actually be happy to see you and most of the rest will be happy to pretend.
We go, we shake the hands and say our hellos and go and sit under the bright flouresent lights. In the end, all everyone really wants is tolerance and to be treated like human beings.
Path
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Duncan
Hilary, my old friend, you said
I gave two examples of persons who had greatly benefited from having the WTS in their lives. One would probably have been dead by now due to drugs and prostitution, the other will be dead shortly due to old age
Undoubtedly you're right - there ARE people who are probably better left alone. My own frail parents, now in their late-seventies, are just such a case - I wouldn't attempt to upset them now, at this stage of their lives, by stripping away their entire belief structure and worldview.But while numerous, people like that can't possibly constitute the majority of Witness suppport. I have to believe that MOST current Witnesses (other younger members of my family, for example) are, in principle, saveable- even if a majority of them, through diverse reasons of their own, don't actually want to be saved.
It just sounds too complacent to say "Oh well - there's good and bad in everything, leave 'em alone."
The Watchtower IS - weighed in the Great Scales of Life - a Bad Thing, and is to be resisted by whatever means we have at our disposal. Subject only to us being sensible about who we inflict our resisting on, I suppose.
Duncan.
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hillary_step
Hello Duncan,
It just sounds too complacent to say "Oh well - there's good and bad in everything, leave 'em alone." The Watchtower IS - weighed in the Great Scales of Life - a Bad Thing, and is to be resisted by whatever means we have at our disposal. Subject only to us being sensible about who we inflict our resisting on, I suppose.
Thank you for your comments and I do appreciate that this is a complex and emotive issue. I also heartily agree that the WTS does deserve all the negativity and attacks that it gets for how it has blighted the lives of millions.
The reality is though, that there is good and bad in every human arrangement that I can think of. What I am saying is not 'there is good and bad everywhere - so leave them alone', I am saying no system is perfect and there are many who need the WTS and its support system. Without it they may face even greater injury. The two people that I mentioned are imho such people. I certainly would not want to handle the responsibility of the fall-out of their exit, if I were responsible for it.
My point is that individuals within are not really the problem, as they only react, in one degree or the other to conditioning impressed upon them. I am sure your own parents, whom I am certain are very decent people, are a case in point. I am focusing on the issue of the sensibility of action that you raised, contained in the phrase 'Subject only to us being sensible'. Your idea of 'sensible' may be sensible, furious XJW just Df'd may have quite a different idea. Defining that issue is not as black and white as some would like to think.
It is the phrase 'whatever means we have at our disposal' that worries me. Victor_E was making the point the 'de-towering' JW's without foresight can actually toss some from a frying pan into a microwave.
My own feeling is that we need to train our guns at the foundation stones of the problem, the GB and its few dozen loyal henchmen. The pressure that has been placed upon them to date has changed their policy. I can assure you that some of the ticking bombs that have been placed under them as we speak will have an effect.
Of course I may be wrong, if I remember that did happen to me once..lol.
Take care Duncan -- HS
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Seeker4
Just found this post. Hilary_Step, I think you make some great points here. And I totally agree. There are a number of people who are better off being JWs, and should simply be left alone.
My mother is similar to this older person you spoke of, and I would never attempt to persuade her to leave. There is good and bad among the JWs. To see them as totally evil is ridiculous. They are simply one among hundreds of misguided fundamentalist groups - and each of those has good and bad features.
Well put, and something this board needs to be reminded of.
S4