Coping With Witness Relatives Cult & Authentic Dual Personalities- Hassan

by flipper 19 Replies latest jw friends

  • flipper
    flipper

    Many of us who have witness relatives have experienced them fading in and out of the cult personality to their real, authentic personality. It's like they are a totally different person. As Steve Hassan says in his book, " Releasing the Bonds ", " It is an eerie experience when, mid-conversation, you sense a different identity has assumed control. " He continues, ' recognizing this change, and acting appropriately, is one of the keys to unlocking your loved one's authentic self and freeing him from cult bondage. "

    So how can it be done ? Hassan says we have to try an develop " rapport and trust with the cult identity and the authentic identity" of the person. Hassan says it's easy to get frustrated trying to communicate with cult controlled relatives. But he said to , " keep in mind that you are trying to help someone whose behavior , information, thoughts, and emotions are being manipulated by the group . "

    As much as we ex-JW's aren't really interested in believing in what the witnesses do - still to get inside their minds to help them open up to us - we need to ask leading questions Hassan mentions to get them to communicate. For instance if a witness says , " I'm doing some amazing things ! " You could ask, " Give me an example of how you feel. " It opens doors and avenues of communication. If a witness tells you they had a " experience that made them feel warm and loved or spiritual , you could say, " I get a really great feeling walking on the beach, or by a river in the mountains. " The key is to show them you " don't have to be in the cult to have that kind of experience. " So it's a comparing type of thing.

    In a cult they " attempt to suppress and destroy the authentic identity, but it never completely succeeds. There are too many experiences , too many positive memories that don't disappear . Yet, over time, the authentic, pre- cult self seeks ways to regain it's freedom. " Hassan says we can help loved ones to reflect on their experiences. He states, " Because mind control cults never deliver what they promise, it is likely that your loved one will have many disappointing experiences with the group. Deep down inside, the authentic identity sees contradictions , asks questions, and records the disillusionments. "

    To help our relatives get out of the witnesses- it is " essential for family members and friends to step out of our own reality - to think , feel and imagine what the other person's reality is. For instance we may ask our cult controlled relative or friend , " Tell us about yourself. Tell us about your experiences . We want to understand. Want to know you better. " It's kind of like what they used to tell us to do out in service - find a common ground so we can gradually build trust. Not that we believe in what they believe - but to help them open up to communicate it can be a start to getting them to think about things.

    I've already started trying this on my older witness daughter- sent her a letter asking how her experiences are going , and sent her pictures of our trip to see her older non-witness brother in the mountains. So- We shall see what becomes of it. So, just wanted to share this info with you folks. Have any of you had some success getting your witness relatives to think about things or consider looking outside the witness box ? Look forward to your comments ! Peace out to all, Mr. Flipper

  • cognizant dissident
    cognizant dissident
    There are too many experiences , too many positive memories that don't disappear . Yet, over time, the authentic, pre- cult self seeks ways to regain it's freedom. " Hassan says we can help loved ones to reflect on their experiences.

    What about people who were born in and heavily indoctrinated with fear, guilt and shame from babyhood. What authentic pre-cult personality do they have? Does Steve Hassan address that in his book or give any advice for reaching people like that?

    Cog

  • leavingwt
    leavingwt

    Thank you for sharing this. I know it must be very difficult to have a child still in the cult. Sending the photos sounds like a great idea.

    -LWT

  • sammielee24
    sammielee24
    In a cult they " attempt to suppress and destroy the authentic identity, but it never completely succeeds. There are too many experiences , too many positive memories that don't disappear . Yet, over time, the authentic, pre- cult self seeks ways to regain it's freedom. " Hassan says we can help loved ones to reflect on their experiences. He states, " Because mind control cults never deliver what they promise, it is likely that your loved one will have many disappointing experiences with the group. Deep down inside, the authentic identity sees contradictions , asks questions, and records the disillusionments. "

    To help our relatives get out of the witnesses- it is " essential for family members and friends to step out of our own reality - to think , feel and imagine what the other person's reality is. For instance we may ask our cult controlled relative or friend , " Tell us about yourself. Tell us about your experiences . We want to understand. Want to know you better. " It's kind of like what they used to tell us to do out in service - find a common ground so we can gradually build trust. Not that we believe in what they believe - but to help them open up to communicate it can be a start to getting them to think about things.

    I didn't find Hassan's book (for me) relative to experiences from those born into vs those who opted in later. People born in and raised as children as I have mentioned before, often have the ability to reason, their critical thinking, altered to such an extent that it is extremely difficult for them to separate themselves from the cult.

    A child whose only experiences and memories exist from their world inside the cult, has only those memories and experiences to pull from. Thus, if their memories are good - their link to the society remains positive to them. Negative memories may make it easier for a born in JW to eventually extricate themselves more successfully but much of the baggage remains.

    I agree with Hassan that communication with relatives and awareness of the the personality and possible weak points, is the best way to cut through cult mechanisms built up over time, however, the reason that cults like the WTS discipline by shunning, is to stop that awareness. There is no way to get through to a relative who observes the cult mandate of shunning because you have to communicate for it to be effective. In the cases where a person is being shunned, many family members who choose to engage in that activity, will zealously guard their relationship to the society by having as little or no contact with non witness family. This makes it impossible. In families where communication remains open and optional, there is a greater chance of success.

    sammieswife.

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut
    What about people who were born in and heavily indoctrinated with fear, guilt and shame from babyhood. What authentic pre-cult personality do they have? Does Steve Hassan address that in his book or give any advice for reaching people like that?

    I have not read the book in awhile, so Flipper will have to address whether the book
    completely answers that. I believe it does.

    I seem to recall some stuff. I do know that all JW's born-in or not have a NON-cult
    personality. That's the true self. I believe it's more accurate than PRE-cult. The
    problem with born-ins is that the non-cult personality is often less defined and
    separated. They never fully let it develop.

    But many firm JW's know injustice and stupidity in the hall. They desire to see some
    R-rated movie and feel stupid avoiding it, or disagree with doctrine and rules. They
    have an opinion of their own before they read the official opinion in the bound volumn.
    They are uneasy about somethings about being a JW. It could be shunning or
    doctrinal changes or Bethel layoffs or ringing bells on Christmas- something bothers most JW's.

  • cognizant dissident
    cognizant dissident

    Flipper: I was curious to know if Steve Hassan's ideas paralleled my own experience as a born in. My parents were pretty hard core dubs, so there weren't a lot of non-JW influenced activities in my memories except for school. I loved school by the way! (weird little kid that I was). It was a place where I could explore all my interests and learn new and exciting things about the world. It was also a place where I received praise and positive attention from my teachers instead of constant guilt and criticism. I was definitely in my core element there, so maybe that was where my "authentic" self was allowed to unfold unhindered.

    OTWO had a good point too, about having a part of ourselves that disagrees with JW's on some point. Even as a young child, while doing my bible reading, there were parts of the old testament that didn't make sense to me, that didin't seem "fair". In my childish mind, a perfect God would have to be fair and logical. When my mother was df'd when I was 10, my father tried to get her visiting rights revoked. When he could not do so legally, he tried to guilt my brother and me in to shunning her. Seeing my mother shunned had such a profound impact on me. In my entire life as a JW, I could never shun df'd people. If I saw them I would always smile, say hello and speak to them. I never truly believed that God could be angry with me for acting lovingly or kindly to others no matter what they had done.

    So, I guess Hassan is correct and there are always little parts of "self" that are tucked away, protected from WT indoctrination. Perhaps it is just a matter of how deeply they are buried away and how afraid one is the take them out and look and them and explore them. In the last few years, I have observed that the main difference between those out and those in is not intelligence, nor is it how "good" of a person they are. It is how much courage they have to face things honestly. Do they have the courage to face losing everything, including their loved ones, in order to find their true self and live with integrity? Sadly I think most people don't. That's why the people here, although very different in personality and viewpoints and cultures, all have such a strong bond. They all share that special quality. The willingness to risk everything to live their authentic lives.

    Cog

  • Tyrone van leyen
    Tyrone van leyen

    Of course, even within the witness structure, personalities vary. We don't get to choose the cards we are dealt in life.

    Things could be worse however. Some folks are born in lands that flood, and where food is scarce. Some are born into far more deadly situations as well, such as war torn areas. All such things hinder and effect personality as well. We learn what we live.

    The ideology of a cult such as the witnesses are founded on deviant personalities. The orgs structure as we know it today, was founded on the deviant, sick and controlling personality of a fat drunk, named Rutherford. Therefore we have two types, within the structure of the pecking order he established. The controllers and the controlled.

    Everyone within the structure marches to someones tune, but the higher you go, the more impunity one seems to have. The same could be said of most corporations, and this is because of money and power. The only difference is if you don't like it, you can walk away. Not so, with a corporate cult, because the product they turning out, is the control, of who you are. Thats what all the books and meetings are for. No wonder they offer free literature!

    The problem with establishing who you are, after you leave, is that there is no positive affirmations from family to assist you in redefining yourself. Such is the same with Islam. No way out!

    The real question is...." Who are you, at your core, without the structure? All of us, as I mentioned, in the begining have varying personalities even within the org. This is because of differing Genes, and influences within families. Personality is a very unique and complex thing.

    Are you a Homer Simpson, or a deep thinker? Are you sensitive or insensitive? Are you kind, or deep down, mean spirited or devaint, like Rutherford and Jehovah? Are You confused and lost? Are you arrogant or humble? Are you weak or strong mentally>

    All these questions define your core. Some folks when given pain. learn to be mean bastards, others will learn compassion. Some who know about the phychology of mind control, will use it to manipulate others for their gain, others will use it to help you.

    To me the ultimate question is, are you good at heart, or evil at your core? I don't know about nature versus nurture, but I think some people are just bad seeds, some are just plain stupid.

    If you are just plain evil or stupid, no amount of pain will teach you. I beleive there are a lot of good people within and there are bad ones too. Just like any corporation.

    Therefore I submit, that despite, the effects this cult has infringed upon us, we are who we are, at our core, and religion is a mask that hides it. There is definately a witness personality, but it is man made. Not natural.

    If I were to personify this cult as human, ask yourself, would you like the personlaity of someone, who shuns family members? Would you like someone who wouldn't give there blood it they needed it? Or how about a person who benefits from being in society but wants nothing to do with it, or a person that has nothing but rules?

    How much we let compassion and common sense rule us, determines how much humanity we still have left within us.

    Tyrone

  • cognizant dissident
    cognizant dissident

    Interesting comments Tyrone. As you say, there are many differing personalities and they are formed early depending on the ideologies we are exposed to whether it be JWism, Islamism, Atheism, Buddhism, or for the non religious types, plain old materialism or consumerism. These seem to be defining our core selves as we become so entrenched in these "isms", we take them on as our personalites and identify them as "who I am".

    However, as Steve Hassan points out, and so many here on JWD have demonstrated, these personalities/identities are not set in stone. We can discard them. It is difficult but it can be done. What then defines our "selves"?. It is largely a matter of choice what we choose to replace it with. I believe there is no core self that is good or evil, intelligent or stupid. We can choose to act in good or evil ways or intelligent or stupid ways. Some seem to choose predominantly one mode however, there is no person who is evil all the time or no person who has never made a good decision in their life.

    My point is that none of these things are any more our true selves, than JWism was. None of them are our true natures. They are ego identities, personalities and roles we take on. Some seem to fit at different times in our lives better than others do. But our true, natual, core essence as sentient beings is something different than any or all of these "isms". It must be something that is there from the beginning and remains at the end despite whether all these other 'selves" come and go. There must be some awareness that transcends it all.

    Thoughts? Rebuttals?

    Cog

  • Tyrone van leyen
    Tyrone van leyen

    Hi cog!

    Yes, I agree that change is not impossible, but thinking and change is very difficult. Acceptence is difficult. Unless you put into practise and become a "cognizant dissident" it will not form chrystalized knowledge.

    I have always wanted a feeling of progression in my life. This includes relationships. It is the way we react to the pain that is teaching us. I beleive emotional growth cannot be attained without the pain which crystalizes the knowlegde.

    So again I say. How will some react to the pain? What bolt of cloth are you cut from? Will it teach you, or turn you into a monster? Are you strong enough? There's an old saying, " Out of Cathedrals have come monsters and from the gutters, saints. It just depends on your makeup.

    For the question of evil, you must remember that crime and sin are two different things. It is impossible to go through life and not hurt anyone. No ones is perfect and you can't please everyone. It is inevitable.

    If you had a freind and that person stole your rent money and then ran like coward when confronted and did this to other people as well, I don't consider that a human being. That is called a sociopath. They are incapable of feeling for others. They are also very clever, and realize that what they are doing is socially unacceptable, and so they mimic caring behaviour and learn how to act, only to get advantage of those with good intent. They get by without killing, but leave an unspeakable trail of damage to others only because they are clever enough to know how to not get caught.

    The next category of evil is the phychopath. Jails are full of them but they are on the streets too. These people arn't clever enough or don't care about the harm they inflict on others family included. They are more the violent types like Paul Bernardo who when asked why he did it replied, " Born a Bastard, Die a Bastard."

    I don't consider taking such people and inflicting severe harm on them any problem. I consider it justice.

    The witnesses on the whole, I think are good folks who are being manipulated by the category of sociopath like Rutherford. They are the ones who control. The governing body is a prime example. They have no mercy with their shunning policy, the rules don't apply to them, They have acces to billions of dollars from those that follow but don't give to charity. They have a team of lawyers that understand due process, but afford it to none of their followers. They have policies which kill, like the blood issue and you can'ttouch em in any way! Hate preaching Imams are more close to phychopathic behaviour because of their desire for destruction and domination.

    Just because evil may not be visible at all times does not mean it does not exist. It must be exposed. It must be fought with the same level of ferocity as those that like perpetrating it on others. Especially in a global world!

    The elimination of suffereing from these kinds of people and there parisitic behaviour, must be one of the prime goals of humanity.

  • MadGiant
    MadGiant

    Thanks

    Take care,

    Ismael

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