Beks... you skipped over this 'graph.
Ohh I agree with that 'graph completely Hill. I just don't think any of the drawing back should be done at the expense of decent wages and benefits, and the environment.
U.S. Auto Industry deserves the grave they dug for themselves
by drew sagan 76 Replies latest jw friends
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beksbks
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beksbks
years of over regulation in the banks
You forgot the de, as in deregulation. That's the problem, and even Greenspan admitted it. Hell most of it's his fault! Ohhh hehehe that reminds me, I gotta tell you a funny. I had a patron checking out books the other day, an older Chinese man. All his books were in Chinese, so I wasn't even sure he spoke English. But he had a book with Greenspans big face on it, and I said quietly "it's all his fault". LOL he looked at me with fire in his eyes, and he said "I know! I lost a lot of money! I want to kill him!!!" Hehe then he added "I want to kill him!" once more for emphasis before he picked up his books and left. I was laughin' man.
Ok, I'm obviously delirious with pain. Hugs to all. Later.
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hillbilly
and those over-seas folks who make our steel and cars do any better?
Reinvestment in capital manufacturing with health welfare and envirometal control is not cheap.. and the past history of US regulation and government manipulation of those issues is what has force our good jobs abroad.
It aint cheap... but if the guberment is gonna regulate stuff let's regulate the important stuff as a cost of business and figure out how to reward those who take the risks
Capitalism can be painful.
Hill
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beksbks
Hey look at this crap. Damn Republicans! They're still in the pockets of the oil companies!
Rather than take 25 bil from that 700 bil,
She said there was "no appetite" in the administration for using the financial industry bailout money to help auto companies.
The White House and congressional Republicans instead called on Democrats to sign on to a Republican plan to divert $25 billion loan program created by Congress in September — designed to help the companies develop more fuel-efficient vehicles — to meet the auto giants' immediate financial needs.
Voinovich and Sen. Kit Bond were at work on that measure Wednesday, toiling to placate skeptical Democrats by including a guarantee that the fuel-efficiency loan fund would ultimately be replenished.
"It is the only proposal now being considered that has a chance of actually becoming law," said Republican leader Mitch McConnell.
But there was little sign that Democratic leaders would go along. They are vehemently opposed to letting the car companies tap that money — set aside to help switch to vehicles that burn less gasoline — for short-term cash-flow needs.
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SacrificialLoon
One of the problems of letting them go into bankruptcy is that no one will probably give GM a loan. When the company I worked for WorldCom went into chapter 11 they got a (some?) debetor in possession loan(s) that allowed them to reorganize. If GM and the others are unable to secure any debtor in possession loans in this market then they'll have to be liquidated under chapter 7 bankruptcy. There's rumor circulating around that SAIC a Chinese auto company will buy up the bits of GM if that happens.
If we can give hundreds of billions to banks to pay out dividends and acquire other banks I think we could loan tens of billions to the car companies to keep hundreds of thousands of people employed. -
leavingwt
Michael Moore weighs in:
The problem is the cars they've been building. They've never listened to the consumers. They've just gone about it their own wrong way. I'll tell you, you know, I'm of mixed mind about this bailout, Larry, because I don't think these companies, with these management people, should be given a dime, because that's just going to be money going up in smoke or off to other countries.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/11/20/lkl.michael.moore/index.html
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Brother Apostate
It would help alot on this discussion, on both threads, if two things were clarified:
Start with the guys making nearly 500% more than the average worker.
The average wage for a unionized worker at one of the big auto maker plants is $70+/hour plus benefits.
And similar comments.
First, unsourced statements are made about hourly wages earned by UAW employees. I have read figures all over the internet that range from 20 some dollars per hour to 80 some dollars per hour. In reading these articles, if you read between the lines, in no case are the figures substantiated.
It appears to me that the higher figures ($70-$80/per hour) are arrived at by dividing total compensation over number of all employees, including executives.
It appears to me that the actual wages per hour are deliberately obscured in every article I read, so I think it best to go with the comments of those who claim to be in or around the industry.
So, let's say loaded cost of the average UAW worker is $40/hour.
That is a cost per worker of $83,200 per year.
Or, if you like, go with the higher estimate of $73/hr, per this source: http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2007-10-09-auto-exec-pay_N.htm
Excerpt:
"It's estimated that GM workers earn an average $73 an hour when benefits including health care and pensions are added in. That appears to be about $25 an hour more than Toyota's U.S. workers. Toyota and GM workers earn about the same hourly wages. Benefits are what push the UAW members ahead. The GM contract slashes the hourly rate by making changes in retiree health care. The contract also will allow GM to bring in certain workers at lower wages."
At $73/hr, that is a cost per worker of $151,840 per year.
Now, according to generally available sources:
GM
CEO Rick Wagoner's salary and other compensation rose 64 percent in 2007 to about $15.7 millionSource: http://www.reuters.com/article/businessNews/idUSN2534738420080425
Ford
reported CEO Mulally received $2 million in base salary, a $4 million bonus and more than $11 million of stock and options in 2007. His base salary was unchanged over 2006. Mr. Mulally has earned nearly $50 million in compensation since taking the helm of the auto maker. That's $17 million for Ford's CEO.Source: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122702915620437775.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
Chrysler
CEO Nardelli- no information available on hois real compensation package. But earlier figures before the buyout by cerberus have CEO compensation in the same range as above, averaging $16-17 million.So, what is the point? It is this:
The average big 3 CEO is being paid $16.5 million per year, while the average UAW employee makes, using the higher figure, $151,840 per year.
In other words, these CEOs make 109 times what the average UAW worker makes!!!! That is not 500%, but 10,900% what the average UAW worker makes!!!
Do you really think
that these CEOs provide as much value to the shareholder and the consumer as 109 employees who actually manufacture the product?Obviously, if the average UAW worker is making less, then that figure becomes even more obscene.
By comparison:
Toyota'
s top 37 executives earned a combined $21.6 million in salary and bonusesHonda
, the top 21 earned $11.1 million, combined, in salary and bonusesSource: http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2007-10-09-auto-exec-pay_N.htm
The point is that while UAW employees are definitely overpaid, it is that CEO and other Executives, with their outrageous compensation that is killing the Big 3!!!!
The larger point is that this is not only an issue with the Big 3- it is problem with NEARLY ALL US Corporations!!!
This is why the US is experiencing the crumbling of it's financial status. Every publicly traded company must must reign executive compensation into a reasonable ratio as compared to employee pay (privately held corps should be exempt), or this country's standard of living will continue to slide down the tubes.
This won't happen of course, so get ready for the Great Depression II. Why? The politicians are bought and payed for by corporate lobbyists, so they spinelessly sell out this country to the wealthy elite.
BA- Clarifying things.