Phobias, Taboos, and Perversion

by jgnat 34 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  insearchoftruth

  fear of hurting someone else if you stick up for yourself

  This is the sort of situation I find myself in, I know so much about the past and the deception, as well as the origins about the JWs, but I do not like to hurt my wife, and right now she will lash out if I raise issues, I know it hurts her as well when I question what she is trying to believe in.....

  I try to ask questions, just things to get her thinking in hopes that she will find out on her own, for I truly believe, most people do not make changes due to people putting information into their hands, they are often to stubborn, but if one can raise some inquisitiveness, then they may find out for themselves.

  This is a great thread jgnat!
• 

  jgnat

  Sweetstuff aren't as [adept] at standing up for themselves and their beliefs when confronted with hurting/diappointing someone they love. That could fall under the guilt phobia for sure.

  I put that in the category of people who have a high need for acceptance. I think this need is tied to a fear of abandonment. The great danger from trying to please everyone is first, it is impossible to please everyone. You are doomed from failure from the start. Secondly, if you take people pleasing too far, you lose your sense of self. It is as if you disappear completely. I think a prime example of this on the board is Cordelia.

  It boggles my mind that so many marriages can go on for years and years without the partners honestly speaking up about what matters to them. What's the point of such a partnership if you give up any chance for intimacy? It's such a safe, warm, and wonderful place to know that you can share the worst of what you are, and your partner still cares about you and still wants to be with you.

  I say the risk is worth it. Otherwise, I might as well replace the husband with a dog.
• 

  jgnat

  ISOT: This is the sort of situation I find myself in, I know so much about the past and the deception, as well as the origins about the JWs, but I do not like to hurt my wife, and right now she will lash out if I raise issues, I know it hurts her as well when I question what she is trying to believe in.....

  Now, there's a difference between "walking on eggshells" and never telling your partner what is bothering you, and patiently following a plan as Steve Hassan lays out. It is smart to leave your wife's "cult self" alone, and patiently help her to think by giving her leading questions when she is in a state of mind to listen.

  I've been very firm with my husband about some things. Like my right to attend or not attend any Witness function I like. I am respectful of the Kingdom Hall standards on dress, and I do ask him before we go to a hall if I am dressed appropriately. Just once, he noticed too late that I had a cleavage-hugging number that was perfectly fine for his taste, but maybe a little to risque for the faint-hearted sisters. He whispered frantically for me to "cover up" at the hall. I whispered furiously back that he had his opportunity to say something...at home.

  He must treat me with respect at all times. That's the line. It's a matter of self-respect and loving ourselves enough to speak up.
• 

  jgnat

  P.S. The line for non-Witness husbands, I think also, is respect. The wife should not be going to the elders for domestic and parenting advice, excluding you. You should be invited along to Witness social events, and you have the option to decline. And your wife should never express "embarrassment" that you are not living up to the Kingdom Hall standards. Also, no sneaking around. If she is studying with a JW in your home, she should be open about it.
• 

  Big Tex

  Phobias, certainly, are created by an anger/aggression response in a particular zone in our brain. It triggers powerful hormone production such as adrenaline, to get us ready for fight-or-flight. Once we've developed a phobia, we are hard-wired to run from it

  Interesting thought.

  I believe that the flip side of anger, is fear. Of which a phobia is a more extreme expression.

  There is of course the old expression that we fear that which we do not understand. So the fear in question could be an outgrowth of ignorance. But for a phobia to come about indicates an experience that is either extremely intense or prolonged. Or both.

  Now, I think some religions, especially over-controlling religions, set up phobias in order to control their congregations. I think the Watchtower society for instance, has set up phobias around Christmas and other social gatherings, associating informally with non-JW's, and sex.

  I don't know that it's all about fear. I think high control religious sects use shame first, then fear. I believe all religion is shame-based, although to be fair many religious expressions are benign, even nurturing. But the more extreme forms use guilt ("You should ..." "Are you sure ...") as well as black-and-white thinking. The words "all" and "never" (an extension of "us" and "them") are often used in a shame-based setting.

  If anger is the flip side of fear, I submit that shame is the flip side of sadness. Where there is shame, there is a deep sadness surrounding the same topics. One feeds the other. Often both are taken in, and the person translates the shame and makes it about themselves, and so there is sadness.

  But also these sorts of organizations attract people who initially have low self-esteem, or a desire to please, or have hyper self-criticism in place. I think these folks also have a fear of abandonment or are lonely at some level as well.

  But I do agree that the Witnesses have set up elborate mind games around the taboos. But they have to don't they? It's the only way to ensure obedience which is essential in a high-control sect. In such an environment, obedience is more important than anything else. A marriage of dysfunction and spirituality.

  How do we break a friend out of such a destructive cycle? Cognitive-behavioral therapy suggests we first make the person aware of the cycle of anxiety and avoidance, then help them come to terms that the cycle, rather than the object to be avoided, is harmful, and finally, teach them to consciously break out of the cycle.

  I am a big believer in cognitive therapy. Of course it is extremely dependent on the individual. He must want to face up to some pretty difficult, often scary, ideas. It is often painful, and ugly to watch or experience, but to come out the other side is an amazing feeling.

  Chris
• 

  jgnat

  Big Tex, it is going to take me a while to digest all you've said. I want to make sure I get it right. One thing you said really stuck out, and I want to give you something to chew on in return.

  But for a phobia to come about indicates an experience that is either extremely intense or prolonged. Or both.

  I notice some phobias are unreasonable and could be triggered by a relatively minor event. For instance, I've met people terrified of mice or bees who have never had one of those furry things scurry across their toes, or had one of those fuzzy bugs sting them.

  I ran around barefoot all through childhood and I even accidentally stuck my head in a hornet's nest. I've had unnumbered stings on the bottoms of my feet, and eleven stings in my scalp. I have no phobias of bees. I think it is because I have a realistic and healthy respect for what might happen, and I know it is all survivable.

  I read that Koko the gorilla developed a fear of alligators, though she'd only seen one in a story book. Those snappy jaws just...looked...scary.

  People with OCD and other anxiety disorders have unreasonable fears that they know are unreasonable. Yet the fear response escalates as if they were in true danger. The short-circuit between the two zones of the brain can be caught on a brain scan. In essence, the poorly circuited brain can't tell the difference between an imagined and real threat. And, because minds work that way, a powerful thought reinforces itself over the others. Over and over again. It takes powerful effort to think differently, as you say.
• 

  Big Tex

  I ran around barefoot all through childhood and I even accidentally stuck my head in a hornet's nest. I've had unnumbered stings on the bottoms of my feet, and eleven stings in my scalp. I have no phobias of bees. I think it is because I have a realistic and healthy respect for what might happen, and I know it is all survivable.

  I read that Koko the gorilla developed a fear of alligators, though she'd only seen one in a story book. Those snappy jaws just...looked...scary.

  But that's it isn't it? We're not all the same. Yes humans have traits in common, but the level of fear in one person regarding one subject is not the same as it is in another about the exact same thing.

  Okay, as you are with running around barefoot, I am the same way. I've been stung, bit, scraped, bled (104 stitches on my forehead) and god only knows what else. I don't care. Yet my son, who has never had anything of the sort happen to his feet, will not walk barefoot through grass. To him, without shoes, it just looks scary.

  I, on the other hand, cannot sleep with my bedroom door open. My son can. Of course I had some rather intense experiences involving bedroom invasion that he (thank god) has not experienced. I think it's fair to say I have a phobia about sleeping with an open door that lies in an extremely intense experience. But my son has a fear of walking barefoot in grass based on appearance/expectation/hearing stories of bad experiences, etc.

  For him, that's enough.

  So I don't know if it's fair to say phobias are unreasonable. It may be that we, on the outside, cannot see or hear or feel, what the person on the inside sees or hears or feels (or remembers). As you imply, the connections in the brain pathways, why two can experience the same thing and yet remember and feel it differently is not easily explainable.

  I submit a possibility lies in what you said about Koko the gorillas. The level of fear is greater in one person toward alligators (or grass) than it is in another. Not necessarily because of a bad experience, sometimes things look bad and we can make a mountain out of a molehill inside. Or maybe it touches on another issue, perhaps reminds us in some way of some other trauma.

  Or not.

  Chris
• 

  jgnat

  Boy oh boy, you give me more and more to think about, Big Tex. As a sideline, I'm popping to share this gem of a site I just found (or re-found) today.

  http://changingminds.org/
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  Big Tex

  Now that's an interesting site. I've bookmarked it as I want to come back and read it when I'm at home and have a chance to think. Thanks!
• 

  Sunnygal41

  But also these sorts of organizations attract people who initially have low self-esteem, or a desire to please, or have hyper self-criticism in place. I think these folks also have a fear of abandonment or are lonely at some level as well.

  BINGO!