by Awakened at Gilead 19 Replies latest watchtower bible
Ippy, thanks, I already know where it is... but thanks for asking.
Johnny, I am aware of the translation issues, but I am highlighting a simple point that the WTS glazed over all the juicy stuff as usual with their famous "...". What JWs need to learn to do is whenever they see the "..." they need to google the quote and see what it really says.
As usual, the WTS is hiding something.
ya but you had to google it. am i right?
I would point you to read the writings of Clement of Rome to start - as he makes references to the cannon used at the time.
In that case, what "scripture" is being quoted in 1 Clement 24:1-5? It is not in our Bible. How about 1 Clement 46:2? Again, this quoted passage (introduced by the "it is written" formula, used only of sacred scripture) is not from any of the books from our Bible. And similarly, what passage in the books of Moses does the quote in 1 Clement 17:6 come from?
For some ideas, see my post here: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/80498/1.ashx. There are some good reasons for suspecting that the apocryphal scripture quoted by Clement of Rome is the same unknown source that James 4:5 quotes from as "scripture" and which Hermas of Rome quotes as from the Book of Eldad and Modad.
is that the one they used for the cover of ac/dc's album "for those about to rock"?
As I read through this, I was struck by the number of "..." that frequently characterize the WTS writings.
This is how they filter what they allow you to get exposed to. Very sneaky.
BTS
The WT really try hard to vanish those who gave the Bible to the world. The facts regarding the Bible are:
1.The New Testament is written in Greek
2.The Gospel was preached throught out the Greco/Roman world in the Hellenic(Greek) language
3.At the time when the Bible Canon was finished with Saint Athanasius 4th century A.D there was only ONE Church. And that was the Holy Catholic Orthodox Apostolic Church. The schisma occured 600 years after that when the West Roman Church(Papal Church) brake way from the Orthodox Apostolic Church. It was the Filioque issue, and the fact that the Pope wanted to have complete control over the Church, something that the East Roman Church could not accept that, because the Church was always acting as Synodic, and as a body, and no Bishop has more power over the others. The Papal Church was burning at the stake those who disagree with their "understanding" of science and many other subjects(see Galileo), the Orthodox Church did not even went to trouble to discuss a matter that for them was a fact: The Earth is round!!! While the Papal Church was falling into more mistakes, and specially the way they intepret the Bible and lead Europe into the Dark Ages forbitting knowledge to the common people, the Orthodox Church never stoped education and searching, and never interfear to the Romanae(Byzantium)Empire, to have Schools, Univercities, Hospitals and knowledge...
The basis for acceptance of the Canonic Books
The majority of Protestants blindly accepts a Regulation (Canon) that includes (only) the 66 Books of the Holy Bible, because SOMEONE TOLD THEM that those are the only Books that comprise the entire Holy Bible. They were “told” that there are the regulation (Canonic) Books and the secondary (Deuterocanonic) Books, and that only the 66 are Canonic, while the other 10 are apparently Deuterocanonic and therefore not “divinely inspired”. In fact, they have even confused the Deuterocanonic Books with the “Apocrypha”, which is an entirely different category of Books. We Christians on the other hand acknowledge the other 10 Books as Canonic Books and naturally we accept them as the product of a decision issued by an Ecumenical Synod, unlike the arbitrary Protestant acceptance.
In order to justify this arbitrary decision, Protestants have concocted a fake statement, which, out of ignorance, the followers have accepted without question. They claim that:
“The Lord and the Apostles completely disregarded the “Deuterocanonic” Books that the Orthodox have accepted, and did not use them as references. On the contrary, they make references only to the other Books that we have acknowledged, therefore those only are the books that are Divinely inspired and Canonic (regulation) Books.”
Of course this statement is not only unfounded, it is positively false. We shall immediately present here an example proving that the Apostles (and naturally the Lord) profusely referred to the so-called “Deuterocanonic” Books (which are actually Canonic). Our question is: When we prove this point, are Protestant believers willing to acknowledge these 10 other Books, just as the Apostles had acknowledged them?
We need not mention here the hundreds (perhaps even thousands) of examples found in the New Testament that are also mentioned in these ten, gravely misjudged Books. One, VERY CHARACTERISTIC example will be enough:
Let’s present just a few of the references thatthe Apostle Paul mentioned in his Epistle to Romans, and compare them (for instance) to the Book of Solomon’s Wisdom. (Imagine how many similar examples we can extract in the same way, from the entire New Testament!)
Solomon’s Wisdom ch.13/XIII - 1: «They became defeated, through their own deliberations»
Romans 1/I - 21: «They became defeated, through their own deliberations».
Solomon’s Wisdom ch.13/XIII – 5: «From the grandeur of the creations’ beauty, their creator is recognized»
Romans 1/I 18- 32: «…since the creation of the world, invisible though they may be, they are comprehended and visible through the things that He created … ».
Solomon’s Wisdom ch.11/XI 22: « who can withstand the might of Your arm ? »
Romans 9/IX 19-23: « who has ever withstood His will? »
Solomon’s Wisdom ch.15/XV 7: « doesn’t the potter create fine vessels as well as lesser ones from the same clay? »
Romans 9/?? 21: « Doesn’t the clay potter have the authority to create (vessels), some of which are for ceremonial use and some for baser use?»
As you can see, the above selection of extracts is just a VERY SMALL example of how the Apostles not only accepted the Books of the Holy Bible that the Protestants have rejected, but they actually quoted from them. This fully proves that the Protestant claim that such verses were apparently “completely disregarded” by the Apostles, is altogether untrue.
But we would like to ask the Protestant believer the following: Why is it, that they have acknowledged (for example) the Book of Esther as a Canonic (regulation) Book of the Bible? Can they tell us exactly where the Lord or His Apostles have quoted references from this Book? Because, if they have considered it imperative that the New Testament refers to extracts in the Old Testament - in order for that Book to be acknowledged as a Canonic (regulation) Book - they must present an example of such a referencing from the Book of Esther, which they have claimed as Canonic. Therefore, we ask, exactly why has this Book been accepted as Canonic?
Could it be, that the “quoting of verses” by the New Testament has nothing to do with the Books being Canonic? Therefore, we ask again : On what grounds have the Protestants decided that the Books which have been acknowledged by them are truly Canonic (regulation) Books?
Delicate distinctions in the matter of Divine Inspiration and Regularity
It is time that we made certain clarifications and a few delicate distinctions:
As you may know, the Church expresses itself Synodically, from the first Apostolic Synod (Acts, XV), to this day. It is therefore necessary to find the decisions of the Church that pertain to the Regularity of the Holy Bible, as expressed in the Ecumenical Synods, in order to validate a Canon regarding the Holy Bible. As proven above by the references found in the Book of Solomon’s Wisdom, the Protestant isolation of Biblical Books on the basis of New Testament usage is neither sufficient nor correct. Without the approval of the Church, nothing can be declared Canonical.
We therefore must turn to the Quinisext Ecumenical Synod, which validated six of the numerous Canons (regulations) that had been formulated at the time. These Canons are as follows: Of Laodicea, of Carthage, of the 85 th Apostolic canon, of Saint Athanasius, of Gregory the Theologian and Amphilochius of Ikonion. Thus, although no canon has been given directly by an Ecumenical Council concerning the Books of the Holy Bible, we do have 6 validated canons based on synodic decisions, that are guidelines for the acceptance of the Books of the Holy Bible.
1. Of the above canons, the Synod of Laodicea issued a broad canon regarding the Regulation and Proposed Reading books.
2. The Synod of Carthage issued a fixed canon regarding the Regulation, Divine and Proposed Reading books.
3. The 85th Apostolic Canon issued a canon regarding Venerable and Holy books.
4. Saint Athanasius issued a canon regarding Divine Books for Canonization and another canon for Proposed Reading Books for the newly catechized.
5. Saint Gregory the Theologian issued a canon for the Genuine Books,
6. and Saint Amphilochius of Ikonion issued a canon of the Divinely Inspired Books.
The fact that the books in these canons are not exactly identical to each other is attributed to the fact that each one of these canons has different “characteristics”. Given that one canon speaks of “divine” books and another canon speaks of “divinely inspired” books of the Holy Bible, we cannot confuse the one with the other kind.
There is a difference between the terms “Divine” and “Divinely Inspired”. Not every Book in the Holy Bible is Divine and Divinely Inspired. Nor are all the “Venerable” books “Divine”. We Christians make very careful distinctions in our expressions, which is something that Protestants do not perceive, hence their assertion that all the books in the Holy Bible are Divinely Inspired. But the Bible does not contain only Divinely Inspired Books.
The Books of the Bible are referred to in the Canonizing sources either as Divine, or Divinely Inspired, or Canonic (Regulation), or Proposed Reading, or Beneficial, or Venerable, or Canonized. These characterizations are not incidental. Differences do exist, hence, all books do not belong to every category. In the Church of Christ we speak with precision and make very delicate distinctions; we do not resort to coarse distinctions such as “Canonic” (Regulation) and “Deuterocanonic” (Secondary).
Summarizing the above, we could say that : The Holy Bible contains books ( such as the three Books of the Maccabees ) which are only Venerable, but not Divinely Inspired or Divine or Canonical. The Bible contains books ( such as Judith and Tobit ) which are Canonical, but not Divinely Inspired or Divine. And the Bible also contains Divine books ( such as Solomon’s Wisdom ) which are not however Divinely Inspired.
We have listed below a number of important clarifications, because we shall encounter these phrases during our further study of the Church’s canons that relate to the Canon on the Holy Bible:
Venerable is a book that Christians have a duty to respect.
Proposed Reading is a book that can be read by all.
Church Text is that which can be read in Churches.
Newcomer Reading is that which is useful for the newly catechized.
Canonical is that which belongs to a Canon (regulation).
Canonized refers to those texts that may belong to a canon, but for which the final decision on their selection has not yet been reached, in order to validate the canon.
Reputable canon is a canon worthy of acceptance.
Holy is a book that is merely beneficial and not necessarily infallible or Divine or Divinely Inspired. In other words, it can be used as an aid, but it cannot be used to support dogmatic or canonical truths.
Divine is the book that has bee written under the supervision of the Holy Spirit, and possibly even by human wisdom. Divine books are infallible in matters pertaining to salvation, but are not necessarily Divinely Inspired.
Divinely Inspired is the book that contains a REVELATION of the Holy Spirit. It is also considered Divine and infallible in matters of salvation, as presented by that revelation of course.
Thanks JustHuman for that list...
Obviously, then, the selection of the Bible canon has been quite subjective, dependent on humna efforts, not the guidance of God's Holy Spirit (TM) as JWs and Christians in general claim.
It's very interesting to see how much the NT is based on non-canonical sources. I think Leolaia has posted about quotations from 1 Enoch, for example. There are quite a number of NT quotations whose source is not clear if you are just reading the OT and NT.
It would be interesting to create a thread listing all of these non-canonical NT quotations.
Great thread!
Since it's over a year since we last attended a meeting, I wonder if the "All Scripture is Inspired" book is still being used at the Theocratic Ministry School? It was that very study "The Bible and its Canon" where it says something to the effect that the Roman Catholic Church takes credit for the canon of the Bible that started my research...
Anyhow, that book is a ticking time bomb. No wonder they haven't updated it yet - still using the 1990 revision (18 years old) and you can bet most of the quotes in it are even older yet (e.g. 1956). If they updated it and put in all the info regarding canonicity that has come to light since 1990 (but even before that date which they have purposely excluded, etc.), the JW world would see clearly that THE EMPORER HAS NO CLOTHES.
Which is why I always say that I believe in a God DESPITE THE BIBLE!
Could somebody do a Muratorian Cannon for Dummies thread? This is makin oompas head hurt!..........but i do find it interesting........
