Why can some question and others not

by joelbear 44 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  YoYoMama

  joel:

  Inaccuracy of information discovered through personal reading and research.

  Was this personal reading of apostate material?

  Hypocrisy in the bureaucracy I saw in how the organization is actually ran.

  I don't doubt that you saw hypocrisy from some witnesses. Like I said, bad elements infiltrate even Jehovahs people. Eventually they are cleansed out.

  Unanswered questions similar to the one's I have recently outlined here regarding Jehovah's justice system as taught by the Watchtower or any other religion for that matter.

  I guess you are refeering to Judicial Committees, but I don't know much about your questions, try me.

  Make me believe and I will follow.

  I am not here to do that. I respect your views, you seem like a logical and sincere person. Each one makes decisions to either stay in the organization or leave, but we must live with the consequences.
• 

  JBean

  YoYo: I was born and raised in the "truth", and still am technically in. Have MAJOR doubts now... similar problem: lack of TRUTH in the organization, from the big-boys on down to some "friends" that will stab you in the back if they get the chance. Believe me when I say that I was raised in a GREAT family... many generations of JW's. They are all still in and I don't believe they have any issues... yet. One of the things that I'm beginning to hate about the organization is that they sugar-coat any issue, by saying that Jehovah will take care of "it" (whatever it may be). I see it in my own family... something happens (different degrees of "bad") and someone will utter "let Jehovah take care of "it"... let's just pray about "it" and "it" will be taken care of." Now, I believe in the power of prayer to heal oneself inwardly, and I'm sure there are some examples of where Jehovah apparently "stepped in" and saved the day... but in everyday situations... COME ON FOLKS... it's frustrating for me that my JW friends and family don't DO anything!!!! If you ask me it's a very non-involved and apathetic attitude to have. I HAD this attitude my entire life (until now) and didn't even know it!!!! I feel that God WANTS us to find a way to handle our problems...he created us with minds!!! I was also very judgemental (to the point of obnoxious) of non-JW's... I figured "we" (JWs) had it all worked out and pity the poor person who didn't join us. I didn't realize I was this judgemental until I took a step back (fairly recently) and went "Whoa!"... I don't want to be like this anymore! I feel now that God will judge everyone on an individual basis... JW or NOT... and only HE will decided who "makes it" and who doesn't. Now, come on, YoYo... I know you're going to say that that's exactly what you and every JW believes... but come on: deep, deep down... we are (were) taught to believe that it's really just us JW's that belong to the organization that will reeeeaaaalllyyyy make it, right???? After all that you've read here and all that's coming down the pike for the organization (UN issue, child abuse, etc.)... I think the only reason you'll stay in is that you actually like having blinders on... for some bizarre reason it makes you feel safe. However, since you're "here"... why not take a step back yourself and use your "powers of reasoning". : )
• 

  detective

  Yoyo asked,"Was this personal reading of apostate material?"

  You may want to specify which apostates you are referring to. As mentioned earlier, Mormons believe ex-mormons are "apostate" but I suspect that you would would not consider reading ex-mormon information to be apostate, just a waste of time.

  Assuming you are asking if he was reading ex-jw materials (your version of "apostate"), I would like to ask you if you believe it is possible that information from former witnesses could ever contain facts? Could it ever contain any truth?
• 

  JT

  YO YO MAMA
  asked

  So what is your biggest problem with the organization?
  ######

  the way in which they control thier members- take yourself as a perfect example- If you were to attend the meeting tonight and tell the visiting CO that you were in this Forum - both you and I know full well what can and often times does happen

  i assume for the sake of conversation that you are at least 21 and yet your leaders and thier rep can come to your home and DF for not saying : "I'm sorry bro for going into those sites, I realize that i was disobedient to the FDS when they showed me from the bible and publications 11-1,15-81 that i ain't suppose to be carrying on any conversations with DFed and DAed folks

  the mere fact that you can be kicked out of your religion for reading this post is all the reason any person who is willing to examine the issues

  the WT was doing fine back in russel day when they merely were students of the bible offering thier "OPINIONS" to thier readers
  they got in trouble when they mounted the SEAT OF MOSES by claiming to be what the facts show they clearly are not

  you can find no example of where jah directed someone that he selected to provide wrong information.

  the example that jw love to site is the example of the apostles not being clear on whether he was setting up the the kingdom up at that time

  the problem with that example is that it is the wrong one and misapplied

  what that text shows is that some held PRIVATE VIEWS ON WHAT WOULD HAPPEN

  these were not the offical teachings of the congregations and if any one disagreed or questioned them they would be DFed.

  yet that is what happens to any jw who questions what is often time presented as the will of god and in fact it is the opinion of the boys in writing

  now i have no problem if they want to give thier opinion but to sing God's name to the ck hoping that it will keep the ck from bouncing is wrong

  allow me to site just 2 examples

  1.. Transplants were never presented as the opinoin of the boys in writing ,b ut the will of god himself - yet we know that from the day that Dogma rolled off the press it was never supported by god or his word- it was an opinion

  2. Alternative Service- this dogma was presented as the will of God again, but we find out that was not the case after all esp if it meant they might lose some faovr with certain countries

  I have a personal friend who was Raped under that man-made rule

  you see my dear friend he was 19yrs old living in NC when he got his draft letter to go to vietnam,

  he and his mom went to the elders to see what to do ( just like any good jw is suppose to do- go to the elders)

  they told them ---let's see what the "SOCIETY" HAS TO SAY and showed them all those wonderful (but useless today) bound vols on what a MATURE CHRISTAIN YOUTH WOULD DO-

  THEY also told them that the CO would be there to their congo before he had to report to the draft bd and perhaps the CO would have some new info from the Society- so when the CO came -he called Bethel and spoke with some of the bro in the Service Dept to see if there was anY NEW LIGHT on the matter and they told him WHAT HAS THE SOCEITY STATED "IN PRINT" if you are an elder you will know the value of that little phrase "IN PRINT"

  SO instead of being able to take that job at the hospital, do the road work, he was told by the SOCIETY that if he was mature he would go to jail and if not- well in view of the fact that he was recently appointed as a MS he not only would lose his little strips,but would be DFED and his MOMMA and friends would not be able to even speak to him, but more importantly he would be PROVING DISLOYAL TO GOD HIMSELF

  just think they basically told my boy that he was join up with SAtan the devil and his gang if he took the job at the hospital.

  so now we all know that what cause 10,000's of thousands of young men to go to jail - thinking it was bases solidly on the word of god and therefore required that you be DFed for violating gods word has turned out to be the OPINION of the BOYS IN WRITING.

  when i was at bethel Lyord Barry who was a missionary over in Japan used to brag and any bethelite who was at bethel during the 80's can tell you - he used to brag about how loyal the bros in Korea to jah and why

  cause they went to jail- not once, not twice ,but sometime 3 times

  he explained so proudly the process- they would be call up to the draft bd asked to go serve- refuse- be offered a job at the hospital and REFUSE THAT AS WELL then off to jail for 3-4yrs
  they would serve that time , be call right back up and the process starts all over again for on the avg they sserved 10-12 yrs

  man we are talking about a kid who is 18 spending his entire youth from 18- 30 yrs of age in jail-and for what - well today we know for NO DAMN REASON AT ALL-

  THE guys gets out and now he is a felon with 12yrs for being a traitor to his country- can't get a decent job and take care of any family he has now, due to being Brande

  then here we come up on the late 90's and what does the WT do in ref to this BIBICAL POSITION they have held for 75yrs- they FLIP FLOP and the damn kicker is THEY BLAME THE JW WHO WENT TO JAIL- IT WAS YOUR FAULT THAT yOUR CONSCIENCE WOULD NOT ALLOW YOU TO WORK THE HOSPITAL

  i got a call from this friend the day he got his mag out of the mail and he was in tears - he was raped repeatly while in prison - and he endured all that suffering as a young man for an org that told him
  TRUST US WE GOT YOUR BEST INTEREST-

  so my dear friend since you are on a site that as a JW you are forbidden to even be here why not use your time here wisely by doing YOUR OWN RESEARCH LIKE MOST OF US

  you asked "Show me some unbias stuff"

  why not take your broswer and point it to some sites and read the infor and check the ref for yourself like we did

  You have before you a very great opportunity, will you use it wisely - that is up to you

  when i came to the net 5yrs ago- I like you would get into sites like this and debate or should i say throw a rock and hide my hand

  but after awhile i stop posting in forums

  I went to sites where there was no commentary just wt history all in year order and i read the stuff and as you read year after year

  you begin to see not new light ,but changing dogmas cause we ran out of time for this to happen or this dogman now don't fit to well in view of so and so

  what started out as "Spirit Directed" turned quickly into OPinionS

  the wt does exactly what they accuse other religions of doing

  mixing some biblical truth and making up stuff as they go along, and the kicker is YOU MUST ACCEPT IT ALL AS TRUTH
  how sad

  we would dog any bible student who said "I know that they got this wrong, but i'm sure god will clean it up and i" waiting on the Lord"

  how sad

  use your time wisely

  james
• 

  RunningMan

  Maybe the question is framed backwards. Instead of "What is present in
  us that caused us to do this?", maybe it should be "What is absent in us?"

  Here's what I mean. Religious people appear to have a deep need that is
  filled by their religion. I personally know some (OK, 1) JW who is intelligent
  and analytical. Yet, even when presented with apostate evidence, still refuses
  to see the point.

  I personally do not feel a need for the structure that either religion or God
  provides. Maybe that's the difference.
• 

  YoYoMama

  JT:

  I understand your point. Thanks for writing that long post. It made me think.

  I have one more comment. There are many black and white areas today that are directly handled biblically. For example, you should not kill, should not steal etc. Those are clear. But there are also many gray areas that are handled by the Service department of the WT. They try to weigh those gray areas with Bible laws and principles. There have been many adjustments and I have to say that Jehovah will judge even the organization for mistakes.
• 

  ashitaka

  Name's second post was excellent. I agree. I questioned things because of the way people I love were treated. People who were kind, but were trampled upon because they didn't belong to the singular consciousness, that the JW's are. Individualistic people are rarely accepted, but that is universal.

  Joel-Hyspocrisy in bearuocracy-very true

  YOYO, I think you are as confused as we are, but for the moment I will assume you are not. I left-It was a question of people.

  My father called me last nite and called me Korah...he said it nicely, but I go the point...he said, all these years you guys have been going against me, "I'm just doing what's right...and"

  I stopped him there and told him that's what the problem was, and that is what the problem is among the JW's...conscience has become the bat to beat someone with..you're allowed to have it, but it had better be stricter than the other person's or there would be hell to pay. If your conscience went outside of the congregational conscience, there would be problems.

  The JW's all say, "I am doing what's right!"

  and that's the reason I left. Every conscience is right, and not to stumble everyone, you pander to everyone's conscience, no matter how bizzarre it is.....and lose your individuality.

  ashi
• 

  Seeker4

  Joel, good post. I've wondered myself about these things.

  You wrote: "Intelligence? Maybe. But I know a lot of very smart non-questioning Jehovah's Witnesses.
  Bravery? Maybe. But I know Jehovahs Witnesses that have survived some pretty amazing trials and are still JW's."

  I agree. I know some really smart JWs who question very little. What I believe is that for many of us it was a combination of things. For me, I think I outgrew the very limited spirituality of the Witnesses, and I did this some time ago. After that I stepped down as an elder.

  A year or so later I decided I simply could never serve again - WAY too many questions. And they had nothing to do with reading apostate literature, YoYo. In the front of my reference Bible I have a page just filled with all the scriptures I came across that showed me over and over again that the Bible had been claiming that the "day of Jehovah" was here for about 1500 years. Read the Greek scriptures carefully and you'll see that the writers thought THEY were living in the time of the end and in the day of Jehovah. No - I got most of my doubts straight from the Bible itself.

  All of this was in my head when the generation change came in '94. When I read that I asked myself: "Have I simply been duped all these years?" Like you, I hadn't expected perfection, I'd "waited on Jehovah," and I'd given the old Org the full benefit of the doubt. When they made that change, I decided I had total freedom at that point to pursue every question I had no matter where it led me. It was the bravest thing I've ever done.

  I found out the truth about the Truth, and man, did it set me free.

  So, I think it's a combination, in some instances, of spiritual growth, courage, intelligence, honesty and perseverance. I also agree with RunningMan that a lot of people NEED religion to give them some sense of hope. They wouldn't dare question out of fear that it would leave them with no emotional crutches.

  James - Your post was great. And YoYo, you said it made you think. That's the most encouraging thing I've heard from you yet. Maybe there's hope for you!

  S4
• 

  ItsJustMe

  I think some don't question because deep down they know once they begin questioning, they won't be able to stop.

  As for my own circumstance, I think sometimes you need to be taught to ask why. I have had some excellent teachers who instilled in me a firm conviction to never take things at face value. Always ask why.

  --------------------
• 

  ianao

  The board will notice that YoYoMamma has read damning testimony of the WT's damaging policies and leaves JT's brilliant commentary with this note:

  I understand your point. Thanks for writing that long post. It made me think.

  Notice the cult programming kick in as YoYoMamma desparately attempts to justify his/her world view by somehow ignoring the recent revelation and (like clockwork) switches gears to defending the 'society':

  There have been many adjustments and I have to say that Jehovah will judge even the organization for mistakes.

  Translation: "I should stay in the organization even if it is corrupt because God will judge it accordingly."

  YoYoMamma uses the same defense mechanisms that other church members use to justify their membership into their respective faiths as they are being spiritually attacked at the door. Indeed many other religions have "made adjustments" to mistakes they have made. One notices how it is acceptable to YoYoMamma for 'the organization' to make such mistakes as God will judge them accordingly (presumably as they are merely humans), yet for 'other organizations' to do the same shows their influence by satan, despite their humanity. In actuality it only shows YoYoMamma's mental conditioning by the society that if your not a member of "God's spirit-directed organization" than you are pigeon feed (read: less than human).