NY Times: "Bad times are good for churches." Why so little JW growth?

by Seeker4 36 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  sir82

  Y'all are bound & determined to make the point that JWs are increasing, against the trend, in the UK, aren't you?

  Yes, they are increasing - so what? It's really rather a moot point - whether you choose to recognize that the growth comes from immigration, and recruitment of immigrants, or not, that is where virtaully all of the growth comes from. If you were to arbitrarily split up the JW congregations into subgroups (immigrant vs. non-immigrant) the way you arbitrarily choose to split up Evangelical branches (African vs. non-African), you'd see the same result.

  Or are you saying there are no Evangelical / Pentecostal churches in England that are non-African?
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  Zico

  Slim, why are you putting the Anglican and Pentecostal figures together and then comparing those figures to the JWs? It's not fair to compare one denomination of Christianity (the JWs) to all others and declare the JWs are doing better than 'Christianity' If you're separating the JWs, all denominations should be kept separate:
  
  Overall Anglican church attendance dropped 31%
  Overall Pentecostal church attendance increased 22%
  Overall JW church attendance increased 11%
  
  That's a fairer reading of the statistics than:
  
  Overall Christian (-JW) church attendance dropped 34%
  Overall JW church attendance increased 11%
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  slimboyfat

  Y'all are bound & determined to make the point that JWs are increasing, against the trend, in the UK, aren't you?

  I just notice that it is a common assumption on this board that JWs are declining in the West whereas other churches are doing just great. But that is not the real picture at all. Christian churches have been declining rapidly in the UK for decades. Even if JWs in recent years have been standing still then that is actually not that bad when you look at the wider picture of declines in religiosity in society as a whole.

  Or are you saying there are no Evangelical / Pentecostal churches in England that are non-African?

  Actually there are some branches of Pentecostalism that are older and more indigenous to the UK - and, surprise surprise, they are declining!

  The Assemblies of God for instance is made up mainly of indigenous British people and they declined from 86,500 in 1979 to 67,600 in 2005.

  The New Testament Church of God on the other hand is made up almost entirely of immigrants and increased from 9,400 in 1979 to 20,100 in 2005.
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  slimboyfat

  Pentecostals are not a fair comparison with JWs because 55% of Pentecostals are made up of African immigrants.

  It is fair to compare the overall increase of JWs to the overall decline in mainstream Christianity because both groups exclude the other as legitimate paths to salvation. Plus the profile of mainstream Christianity as a whole more closely matches that of JWs rather than isolating largely immigrant churches within mainstream Christianity and comparing that with JW growth.
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  mustang

  I have noticed that many of these large churches offer so much more to their congregants than the Watchtower does. For example, there is a large church in the community where I live that has free day care for parents who are attending Sunday services.

  A curious variation on this theme was what Doctor Gene Scott did in his downtown LA Church of AOG (Assemblies of God). Doctor Scott had decided that young children would disturb services one way or another: crying, mothers getting up in rows stepping on/over people to get tot he aisles and then trundling down the aisles to restrooms.

  (My mother recounted that, as an infant, I liked the sound of breaking glass and would throw my milk bottles in the aisle to listen to them break.)

  So, children under 12 are not permitted in the main hall for services. They are kept in an "day-care center" area; but they aren't kept there for long. Volunteer adults are with them. Then they all shortly get on chartered busses and visit local museums or other attractions. Scott said that there were 20 or so of those features within 15-30 minutes of the church itself.

  The children are taught/told that it is a "privilege" to attend the Church services. But they enjoy themselves and are learning in the "day-care center" environment.

  So when they are 12 years old, they are allowed access to the main hall. But they don't get to sit wherever they like, especially with their buddies or friends of the opposite sex. They must SIT WITH THEIR PARENTS!!!

  I don't know if Dr. Scott's methods are still in force; somewhat after his death, his widow, the new "Pastor", has made changes. They obviously are after money and that may have declined; she has greatly curtailed the local area TV coverage.

  Mustang
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  mustang

  Wow... Jeremy and Seeker! I know I felt squelched creatively while I was in, but I never really thought about it in these terms before. You are so right... not only are the programs dry and devoid of life and joy, they are all pre-recorded or very strictly outlined.

  Yes, they are dry and oppressive. They kill individuality. That is apparent in their own words from the "Walsh trial" (I believe) testimony of one of the highest of the high muckety-mucks (HMM) of the WTS. The HMM said (as I recall, paraphrased) "we require unity at all costs".

  This thread sums up the worst exacting price of the WTS:

  And that cost is the individual. I go as far as the individual itself, not just their individuality, which goes first. Just try "harboring private thoughts"; they make efforts to flush them out eventually.

  And another recent thread on "what have you been counseled on" shows how ultimately petty these ministrations are.

  In this case, the Army has them beat: for years their motto was "Be All That You Can Be".

  Personal growth is considered anathema by WTS: the individual has to be stifled and submerged into the organizational dogma.

  JW's are worse than the original Puritans that settled this country: the members are herded like the Puritans but molded and fitted by a leadership class straight out of the old Jewish Pharisees.

  OMG!!! A cross between the Purtians and the Pharisees

  Mustang
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  mcsemike

  To Seeker4: I liked the observation that during hard times, JW's or anyone else, don't go to the Hall for help, encouragement, genuine love, or even financial assistance. I thought the early Christians held all their money in common. But the WT tells people to seek food stamps, and to take advantage of social programs. I find this funny since the world is totally under Satan's control, yet the elders send poor, old, and sick people (some with 50 years or more of service) out in the world. They don't loan them money but they publish a whole page on different ways JW's can donate money. I don't think it's loving to approach a survivor at the funeral and ask if the old person left the WT any money or if they didn't, can they make a huge donation. Very sick.

  I remember my father telling me that during the Great Depression, bars still did a good business. Even though alcohol was the last thing poor people should be buying, they still drank to ward off their problems.I don't drink but I'd rather get drunk than have any contact with the WTS. It's disgusting how they shamelessly beg for money in the ragazines.