True & purposeful belief.. from within or without ? Your answer please !

by caliber 28 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • caliber
    caliber

    This is an off shoot from LouBelle's thread .. I did not wish to steal it. Here are some quotes i wish to explore

    It's the inherent weakness of belief that comes from outside of a person. It's a fragile position, that is easily threatened. Of course, it's not true for ALL Christians. It is more true for the more extreme forms though, like the cults. I call it artificial.... Satanus
    All religions are based on SUPERSTITIONS. And those who fall for it are ignorant. Many of them are good people and very kind hearted. But, still, they are ignorant...and it's NOT THEIR OWN FAULT! Cameo-d
    Christians think "they have got it" because after they get beat up with guilt (so they give more), the handlers soothe them by making them feel they are "special".... Cameo-d

    These are very honest from the heart comments which make generous allowance for why Christians believe. As I'm sure most know that I profess

    to be of the Christian faith.. I do not wish to argue or condemn as many of you feel Christians constantly do. Please just enlarge on

    your personal faith and belief as related to faith, hope and love ! And how internal and external belief differ ? Lets not fight with

    negative finger pointing but POSITIVE aspects of your personal belief system ! Please lets keep it positive.. upbuilding

    Do not judge but inspire !

    Caliber

  • caliber
    caliber

    shameless bump.. fell to second page within seconds of posting.. sorry but want responses ~Cal

  • compound complex
    compound complex

    Hi Cal,

    Though I'm in a state of spiritual flux, I've seen references in my studies to what I believe is called Naturalism. It has to do with recognizing the forces of Nature and man's place therein. Worship? I don't know. What I have learned, however, is that there were attempts to wipe out this belief system by those with a religiously motivated control agenda in place.

    Interesting, too, is the allegation that the Church wanted to obliterate the true background of their faith.

    Sound familiar?

    CoCo

  • snowbird
    snowbird

    Cal, imho, beliefs come from within and without.

    I believe we're "hardwired" to do good, positive things, and that we search for others who are of like bent for confirmation and validation.

    We can see this in action when a whole community comes together to aid victims of tragedies, as I'm witnessing right now. An 86-year old woman's house burned to the ground. She suffers from Alzheimer's, and I don't think she's even aware of what's happened.

    Whether a person accepts the Bible as the Word of God or not, the fact remains that it has a profound impact on people's conduct.

    I hope this isn't too jumbled.

    Sylvia

  • caliber
    caliber

    Hi Co Co,

    Thanks for your expressions .. they are exactly the type of comment I was hoping for

    gentle.. honest... kind... food for thought without browbeating. .. your personal place of peace

    and acceptence of life upon this earth ! ~Cal

  • caliber
    caliber

    Hi Snowbird,

    Cal, imho, beliefs come from within and without.

    I believe we're "hardwired" to do good, positive things, and that we search for others who are of like bent for confirmation and validation

    . These words of yours I find to be very comforting... we need faith and comfort both inside and out to have some measure of inner peace ! Do some believe to have an anchor on anything external is weakness

    in the end futile and useless ? I just don't know or understand this position for sure . Maybe some one can explain

    their exclusive internal source of strength & power ! I do not condemn I only ask ! ~Cal

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips

    I think it is both internal and external.

    BTS

  • AllTimeJeff
    AllTimeJeff

    Caliber (beware of my run on sentences, I am at work. )

    This lies close to my heart. I am agnostic, but I find the longer I am out of the borg and deal with my anger towards the leadership of JW's, the less antangonistic I am of theistic beliefs, if only for the utility it offers individuals, not for how it causes problematic group think solutions. (i.e. organized religion)

    I don't totally agree with those who say all faith is ignorant. I would equivocate on that by saying that for anyone to really promote the worship of a deity in absolute faith with only ancient scrolls and no other evidence certainly open themselves up for rightful criticism. For better or worse (I would say for better) leaving a cult like JW's causes one to investigate all that comes to them. That includes all religious theology and their source material, especially their holy books. This is healthy, and all should do it, even if all can't.

    A problem with trying to find a purpose in life through religion is that to say "Eureka, I've found it" is to put on blinders as to all other forms of worship and views of spirituality. Just because someone gets a certain feeling and a purpose in life which may benefit them doesn't allow for them to offer their own personal solution as one for all! We all have to allow for other solutions, and that individuals will find purpose and meaning in their own way.

    Here is where it gets tricky, because according to the Christian source material, the NT, Jesus does say to preach and advocate all to believe on him and his human sacrifice. Ok. I accept that Christians who take the bible literally are going to follow this. I used to myself in the way I was raised to understand such passages. Regretably, the evidence over 2000 years does not support a group think approach to Christianity.

    Yet, so many get a purpose in life by following Jesus! Why would I take that away from them.

    On the other hand, why would a Christian assume, when I inform them I don't worship Jesus, that I need him, and my eternal soul is at risk? It's at that point that an agnostic or an athiest will defend himself by going after what they often know so well: The source material (OT and NT of the bible) is not what some of its promoters claim it to be.

    A belief or a philosophy that truly gives purpose and meaning must come from within, from some sort of realization. I am not implying supernatural, mystical dogma. It is my strong belief that these decisions are made on ligher evidence and lighter thought then perhaps is called for. Those with a real calling in life often mine deep in themselves to stay true to their calling. If you can't explain why you believe one way or the other, and you can't be intellectually honest enough to acknowledge the limitations of your belief system, then you need to dig deeper I think.

    Theism or Atheism is not a requirement either way to have a purposeful, meaningful life.

    Faith, hope and love are all necesarry, and Paul wasn't the first ancient to note this as a positive aspect of being human. Let me break those 3 down this way

    We must have faith that tomorrow will be better then today. How we get to that point is personal. Atheists do have a lot of faith, just not in god.

    Hope, which is closely associated to faith, is best summed up by those who hope in, for example, Obama, that he will be an excellent president. There are legitimate reasons for this hope. Where one chooses to invest their hope is also a personal matter, but Atheists are among the most hopeful people I know. Why? Because (this is an anecdotal generalization) they also tend to be humanists, and believe in man, despite the evidence that bad people will seek to exploit and harm when they can. They also take the evidence of good that mankind can do and make that their own.

    Love: If we don't start with a healthy love and respect of ourselves, then we cannot love another person. A theist I might add, without proper self love, cannot love god the way they would wish to. If one depends on religion or another person to have any self esteem and loveof self, they often set themselves up for disappointment.

    Once you own yourself, who you are, and love yourself, then you can have faith in others, a hope for the future, and can really unconditionally love others from your heart. This is something that theists and atheists can do, even if they never agree on religion or god.

    These are rambling thoughts I know. I am still working out my purpose in life, even as I write this, even though I know what the evidence says about god and the bible. I can't ever go back there again. But I can strive to be an ethical, spiritually open minded person. That isn't the sole provence of theists.

  • Number1Anarchist
    Number1Anarchist

    AllTimeJeff you've articulated my thoughts exactly. Ofcourse it's nice to have faith in something but when that faith is baseless and built on superstition and you are told you must believe or you will be killed gets rediculous. Do or die syndrome.

  • caliber
    caliber
    AllTimeJeff you've articulated my thoughts exactly

    . Yes I must agree with this underlined quote above.. you make your points very clearly and logically.

    The point about finding faith , hope and love in the world of humans makes sense. The only question that

    still reminds in my mind need we go beyond this to spirit connection outside our physical world ?

    I do belief that self-realization is important finding out who we are.. what we want.. what inspires us.

    that's why tolerance and unconditional love is so important to me.

    There is so much risk and danger in becoming self-defensive such blinding us to deeper truth

    and understanding !

    I find the longer I am out of the borg and deal with my anger towards the leadership of JW's, the less antangonistic I am of theistic beliefs,

    I do feel in time that for some the pendulum swings in the other direction for many.. an over correction of sorts !

    Caliber

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