God punishes to the 3rd and 4th Generation! How nice! (page 12)

hamilcarr

So there are sins that impact even to the fourth generation and further.

Of course, but the so-called sins of the Canaanite tribes didn't fall under that category. They were punished for waylaying the Israelites.

BurnTheShips

Of course, but the so-called sins of the Canaanite tribes didn't fall under that category.

They certainly did fall under that category. The Canaanites knew who El was and the Canaanites that accepted and repented were spared. For examples we have Rahab's family, and the Gibeonites. Even Abraham went to Salem to worship God, so they knew. In Genesis 15:16 God tells Abraham that the judgement would not befall the Canaanite tribes for 400 more years, because the iniquity had not yet led them to the the point of no return. Deuteronomy 9:4-6 tells us that the Israelites were given the land not because they were good, but because the Canaanites were very evil.

BTS

Perry

Sure, makes sense to me.

Finally Free,

Are there things that our government does that is OK for them but not for us? Sure there is. Governments administer capital punishment all the time, but it's not ok for the citizens to do that. Why would you judge God differently?

Read Luke 16. The rich man was near the flame, it was hot and very uncomfortable. Others like Hitler who burned millions in the ovens may actually be in the flame... don't know and don't really want to find out.

The point is that God views man as dead already. You yourself will be gone in just a few years. A few years after that no one will even know you existed, but God will. Just because you put God on trial, and may judge him by a different standard than you do your own govt. doesn't mean that he'll go away and cease to give people choices. In fact, you are forcing him to administer the justice that you seem to require. God encourages us to seek mercy, not justice.

Of course, you'll have a chance to prove that you were "good" and thus deserve LIFE. Good luck.

Perry

I'm in favor of an evolutionary approach to the right and wrong.

Of course, this brings up a variety of questions:

Does this mean that right and wrong evolves? The right that I do today might be the wrong of tomorrow? Who tells me the "right" of today? Who determines the wrong of tomorrow?

This morality is based on empathy and reciprocity.

This sounds very close to "love God and love your neighbor as yourself". But let's just go with your definition.

I guess you would judge someone "wrong" if they were not empathetic and if they did not reciprocate kindness? Right? So have you ever violated these standards? If so, any measure of justice would require that you receive the label of "wrong" as well. God would have to cease being God if he didn't punish wrongdoers, lest he be their collaborator. Some might also say that he would equally have to cease to be a God of love if he didn't at least offer to take your punishment for you. Which of course is what he is offering. "By his stripes we are healed" .

All roads lead to the cross and the re-birth.

AllTimeJeff

I have been following this with interest, and fall on the side of the anti bible crowd. I don't mean to pick on Perry, as I disagree with all bible apologists, but I use one of his quotes below as a springboard for my views.

Regarding the video: Assuming there is a God, should he not punish wrong doers? The video assumes that people are innocent and that punishment is wrongly applied (stemming from Adam). That is not what the bible claims and not what reality is. So the bottom line question for atheists is: who should do the punishing...if anyone? And once they choose someone and give him the authority to punish others; how would an atheist know whether or not someone had done right or wrong?

I have no comment on the video, just the (typical) logic that I believe to be flawed. That is, we, mankind, are sinful before god, offensive to god, and worthy of destruction, or at least punishment, because mankind is not capable or given the ability to decide right and wrong.

Logic has been applied by several posters to this, using the bible and asking relevant questions. My point isn't to rehash these. I think that those who read this, as usual, can make up their own minds, if they haven't already staked out a side.

What is most disturbing to me about the apologists and their arguments on this topic are the outstanding leaps of logic in defending a god who holds the unborn responsible for the actions of generations past. Semantics aside, there is no logical, just argument that can smooth over the bible's portrayal of god in these passages.

To all of the apologists, I have to ask, what if god has found your grandparents, or great grandparents offensive, people that perhaps you have never met, and he is determined to punish their family "to the 3rd and 4th generation". How does that make you feel? Is that really just?

A reasonable person, theist or otherwise, would have to answer no.

The issue isn't who decides what is right or wrong. The fact that Christian theists maintain that, in the absence of their moral code as they understand, anarchy would exist, is directly proven wrong by the laws and ethical/moral standards that exist in most societies and cultures of the world today. Societies and cultures I might add, that are not Christian.

If a Christian theist would dare step out of their Christian world view and try to see the world through the eyes of a Buddhist, a Jainist, a Chinese or Korean (North or South), then one would readily concede that this argument of the Christian god providing ethics, morals, and laws is moot, as the gods of all of these people effectively accomplish the same thing.

Is their god the more correct one? What evidence do we have? Happiness? Would anyone here presume that people who aren't Christian are unhappy? Or merely, not "saved"? That is a metaphysical judgment without evidence. Without this Christian way of looking at people (i.e. saved or not saved, believers and non believers) there is no basis for the Christian apologists argument on this score.

American justice, as an aside, has evolved through the careful separation of church and state, something that was very purposefully done by the founding fathers. To put this another way, YHWH would be in jail today, and rightly so, if he punished to the 3rd and 4th generation. This American justice is much superior to the OT version, don't you think?

At the very least, one must hope that their grandparents didn't piss off YHWH!

BurnTheShips

If a Christian theist would dare step out of their Christian world view and try to see the world through the eyes of a Buddhist, a Jainist, a Chinese or Korean (North or South), then one would readily concede that this argument of the Christian god providing ethics, morals, and laws is moot, as the gods of all of these people effectively accomplish the same thing.

The source of this morality is the same even if the names are not.

They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right.

To put this another way, YHWH would be in jail today, and rightly so, if he punished to the 3rd and 4th generation

As I explained in my previous post, actions have long term consequences.

BTS

AllTimeJeff

The source of this morality is the same even if the names are not.

On this, we could be closer to agreement.

Having a source of morality though is much different then portraying an enforcer of morality. History shows only man has enforced morality, often in the name of god, but always in the manifest absence of god.

BurnTheShips

History shows only man has enforced morality, often in the name of god, but

always in the manifest absence of god.

The order of things itself enforces morality.

BTS

Perry

That is, we, mankind, are sinful before god, offensive to god, and worthy of destruction, or at least punishment, because mankind is not capable or given the ability to decide right and wrong.

The ability to choose right from wrong is not so much the question as: can man live up to any standard of "right" or 'wrong". This isn't a Christian perspective, theist, or atheist perspective, just a stand alone question.

What say you?

AllTimeJeff

I will answer this when I get back from dinner. :)

God punishes to the 3rd and 4th Generation! How nice!

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