God ordered abortions?

by Julie 35 Replies latest jw friends

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  willy_think

  Hi this is an interesting thread I used to be pro-choice /Anti-death penalty then doing research and giving thought to the argument I had to admit to my self that all my arguments for abortion also supported infanticide, that was the end for me.

  i think the bible used language that makes it clear to see the army's of Israel were KILLING people. not "aborting unwonted hunks of flesh"

  In the comparisons I read, "God performed the equivalent of abortion on a large scale."
  This I think is a true statement and a lot of posters seem to agree but to me the point is they are the same!! Abortion is large scale killing. the bible tells it like it is, abortionists do not.

  now i think doing gods will is good and going against it is evil, that is just me believe what you want. but believe they are the same large scale killings. if killing is OK with you then it is OK. the question to me is when does a person receive human rights under the law. at conception or some arbitrary time during pregnancy or at birth or when they get an SS card or when they become fully formed human beings? (which is a substantial time AFTER birth)
  
  Billy

  The Great and Powerful Oz
  

  pay no attention to the man behind the curtain
• 

  Seeker

  Gumby,

  Come on seeker....I know your DYING to jump on this one.

  Why?

  Rex,

  Thank you for the varied explanations. I agree with you that those are various explanations that would make sense to various believers. I think Skeptic still had a point, though. Even if we accept God's sovereignty, and thus His right to do whatever He wants to do without question, wouldn't this still mean that He doesn't want us to perform abortions, but He can do the equivalent if it suits His larger purpose? It would still mean God ordered abortions, but He must have had a valid reason for doing so. Is that correct?

  Julie,

  I have often thought about the fundamentalist mindset on the issue of abortion. Essentially, they want every fetus to come to term and be born. They want to protect this unborn life without question. Then the children grow up and most of them turn away from fundamentalist teachings and thus deserve death! Sometimes you can't win for trying.
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  Julie

  I would like to thank everyone for their very thoughtful responses. I am glad to see the issue giving serious consideration and, especially, to Rex be the only "believer" honest/earnest enough to try to explain/answer the issue. I also note Rex that you go to the trouble to present several different perspectives. Thanks for the kind words, BTW.

  Outonalimb, Welcome to the board, thanks for our input, hope to see more of you here.

  Regards to all,
  Julie
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  Rex B13

  Hi Julie,
  Taking a literal view of the events, it is obvious that God took full reposibility for His judgement. None of it actually speaks to abortion, God's judgement is reserved in a category that excludes all human choice. Indeed, He tells us that our days are numbered by Him, that He is sovereign and in control. All events in history will work toward the greater good regardless of how they look to us. Some can't deal with that and the use idea that "God is love" by ignoring His holiness, vengeance and wrath in what I call "Oprah Winfrey theology". It's patently unbiblical and dishonest to teach that. People can and do pin whatever label they want on judgement and the problem of permission of evil.
  I've seen people healed where doctors have no idea why the person lives and I have seen people die for seemingly no reason, then found out the 'silver lining' that later emerged.
  "To be absent from the body is to be present with Christ", says it all for the believer. We are just passing through this world for a time and a season, living a life of struggle yet emerging victorious in glory (by that I mean heaven).
  Later,
  Rex
• 

  Skeptic

  Hi Richard,
  Perhaps you need to go over my reply again. You missed the 'sovereignty of God' reasoning (or ignored it) completely. You also failed to acknowledge that we have very much chosen our own fates by our own free will, as has Satan.
  You are obviously either blinded to, ignorant of or intentionally ignore the reasoning that the apostle Paul uses in Romans. If you want an explanation of election/free will just look up 'Calvinism' in your favorite search program.

  Seeker's reply is the same as I was going to reply, except he is better with words than I am.

  Whether God had the right to commit genocide or not, whether or not free will was involved, whether or not those countries deserved to be wiped out...none of this affects Julie's original posting. If the Bible is literally true, then God killed the unborn on a massive scale. This is true whether or not God's actions were moral or immoral.

  There are some possibilities where this may not have happened:
  1) If the Israelites or the Bible said God ordered the genocide when He didn't. That raises issues on the trustworthiness of the Bible.

  2) There were no pregnant women at the time the genocide was committed. This is highly unlikely considering that millions of people were killed. The chance of zero pregnant women being present is nil. Unless God did a miracle first and stopped all women from getting pregnant for nine months prior to the genocide. No one has suggested this as a serious possibility.

  I see that you have not taken my advice to read either "Mere Christianity" by Lewis or "Basic Christianity" by Stott. Neither of them are 'fundys' as you would describe them.

  Only for practical reasons, namely lack of time and lack of interest. Like everyone else's my time is limited and I have to be choosy about what I read. My interest now mostly lies in non-religious subjects. You may have noticed that the quality of my posts has got down in the last few years. I don't have the time and desire to reesearch JW topics nor religious topics anymore. A few years ago I would have gladly read C.S. Lewis' works, but now I would rather put my time into other interests. This is not a reflection on C.S. Lewis. I always had trouble wrapping my head around his writing style.

  You jump gleefully to agreeemnt with Julie's questions even before you reason out the valid response I gave.
  Rex

  I thought you did a great job. I just saw no contradiction between what you wrote and what Julie wrote. If anything, your points supported hers. If anything, your post said, 'Julie's right but there is a good reason.'

  Richard
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  Rex B13

  Seeker,
  You are correct in the matter of Richard's point. Thanks for pointing me at it.

  Skeptic,
  Sorry if I was too blunt, Richard, on my reply to you. I see your point as you narrowed it down to the bare essentials. I usually see things from many angles and think of several side issues that sometimes obscures the simplest answer....;-)
  I just did it again. ;-)
  Don't worry about the 'quality' of your posts.The less obsessed we are with arguing, the more we branch out our interests and explore all that life has to offer.
  Rex