by Bubblie 43 Replies latest jw friends
I have related question (s).
1. If a foriegn tourist falls ill or injured while in Canada, assuming they don't have other insurance, are they cared for at no or minimal cost?
2. Same question as above but the person is working there on a visa.
3. Same question...but the person is working/living in the country illegally.
As a Canadian, now living in the USA legally and permanently, and having used and been part of both systems, I can tell you that in my experience and that of all of my friends, families and coworkers in Canada - yes - it is better.
The quality of care I would classify as equal but the real deal breaker is that the accessibility to health care that the USA doesn't have. The waiting times depending on where you live and what you need are pretty well the same and the care is the same. The difference is that in Canada I never had to pay thousands of dollars plus insurance premiums every year if I needed medical treatment and in the USA I have had to. As for hospitals, the last one I took hubby to here in the US was filthy. The chairs inside the emergency room itself were duct taped together, the bed rails were dark with grime, file cabinet pushed up against the filthy window with blinds that were falling off the window. It was disgusting. I've never seen a hospital anywhere near that bad in the places I went in Canada. That hospital definitely had low standards - never saw anyone use the hand sanitizers once as they worked. Then I went to a hospital in Colorado and it was beautiful. Clean and up to date - really enjoyable experience. So, depending on where you are living, the facility and service will be different. I waited 3 weeks to see a doctor here - I waited (at times but not always) the same in Canada. The thing is - no out of pocket payment on top of my premiums so I wouldn't go bankrupt if I did get sick.
Answering Gregor - I don't know about illegals. I believe that on a visa you are entitled to the same care once you pass the waiting requirements, because the system is based on taxes and a worker would be paying taxes. A friend of ours is in sales and is American, he was put in the hospital for 2 days when he got a virus and the bill was a few hundred dollars I think. He said he didn't have insurance and was terrified that he was going to get a $20,000 bill. His employer took care of it for him though. That was a long time ago so I don't know what happens now.
I do understand what you are saying about the illegal use in the USA. I dont' know however if eliminating that would solve the issues in the USA because the system is so bloated with paperwork and regulations in insurance anyway. It is my understanding that the USA is already looking at various European examples of healthcare that they might begin to utilize. Much of that might be in access to care without denial of existing conditions and so on. sammieswife.
To your question number 1 Gregor - 1. If a foriegn tourist falls ill or injured while in Canada, assuming they don't have other insurance, are they cared for at no or minimal cost?
Good question. I can guarantee that they would not be cared for at no cost, since the costs of health care in Canada are paid for by tax-paying Canadian citizens and you will not receive "free" care without proof of registration with the health plan of your province of residence. Each Canadian province has its own schedule of fees for services, so although Canadian citizens do not see bills for basic care, fees are charged to the provincial health care program, (normally via a third party who administers the claims), by the health care provider according to their provincial fee schedule. Foreign tourists would not be charged less than these same fees, although I'm uncertain as to whether or not they would be charged more. (I think that's unlikely though.) When Canadians travel to a foreign country, our basic health care coverage goes with us; however, we would only be reimbursed for emergency services and then only at the rate that would have been paid had we needed the service in our home province. So, travel insurance is always a must for this Canadian, as it should be for tourists visiting our country!
I'm curious about the premiums other Canadians pay for their basic health insurance. We've never had to pay premiums in Nova Scotia, as far as I know. How are/were they collected? Payroll deductions?
Thank you all for your comments. I am hoping President Obama will do something to try to reduce the costs for all the extras when you are in hospital. You Canadians really know your stuff about your care. We here in the US are flying by the seat of our pants, mostly. I am looking to get my own health insurance since mine ran out with my ex. I am no longer employed by him so I don't qualify for the insurance. Wonder, if he will pay for his new woman's insurance from the business? He is a generous soul. Always has been. He loves taking care of people.
I have wondered about what would happen when you visit Canada and get injured or sick. Thanks for that input.
Kit
I trained as an RN so I learned a little bit about the system. I had to do a comparison of the US and Canadian systems for a class presentation.
The standard of doctor and nursing training and technology is the same in the US, Canada and the UK. Healthcare professionals from these countries can, and often do, interchange without any additional education.
I have used the system in Canada and the UK but not in the US although I have many friends who have and I've listened to their experiences.
The two largest differences are in funding sources and in availability. As was stated earlier, the number one cause of bankrupticies in the US is healthcare costs. I have never in my 45 years of life, heard of anyone in Canada or the UK go bankrupt due to medical bills.
Canada provides universal healthcare, which means that standard care is available to all citizens and landed immigrants without regard to ability pay, age, gender, race, etc. Included in this are free doctors visits, free hospital stays, free emergency room visits, and many (but not all) medical treatments, surgeries etc. This is paid for through federal and provincial taxes which are much higher than in the US. The federal goverment pays a portion through transfer payments to the provinces based on population and then the provinces administer their own hospital systems.
Some provinces charge medical premiums to supplement the plan. Elderly and low income people do not have to pay the premiums. Most employers cover half or more of the premium. Self-employed people have to pay the entire premium themselves if they have enough money. In BC, the premium is about $30 per person per month. Nobody can be turned away from emergency medical care due to non-payment of the premiums. Technically, you could be hit with a big bill if you had not paid your premiums. In practice, what the hospital staff do if you are admitted and have no insurance, is to get you to sign the application for provincial insurance when you are admitted. Coverage is guaranteed so once the red tape is completed you will get a retroactive bill for the unpaid premiums not for your entire hospital stay. That's why no one goes bankrupt.
Some things are not covered by the universal healthcare plan such as ground, water and air ambulances. They will always transport you but you will receive a bill afterwards. Dental visits and treatments are not covered except for children of low-income families and emergency dental treatments, infections, surgeries in hospital after trauma etc. Cosmetic surgery is not covered. Prescriptions are not covered except for low-income people. Preventive treatments like chiropractor, naturopath, massage and physiotherapies used to be partially covered but it became too expensive so they are no longer. If you receive physiotherapy in hospital post-surgery, it is covered. Many working people have extended group insurance though their employers to cover these extras. Self-employed people can buy their own but it costs a bit more (about $50 per month per person).
I'm not sure how people from other countries who end up in our hospital are billed. Canadians know to get travel insurance when they go to US or anywhere else. I went to the UK at Christmas with travel medical insurance because I have a chronic illness. Sure enough, my last day I ended up in emergency room for the night. I was treated and when I left I asked them if they wanted my insurance numbers and address for bill. They said no, emergency treatment was free in UK, even for foreigners, but if I had been admitted for overnight stay there would be a bill. So thumbs up to the UK! I believe it is the same in Canada and in public hospitals in the US. They must treat everyone.
Canadians regularly grumble about doctor shortages and wait times, but I have never met one who wanted to go to to the US system. This was born out by the Romanow report, the most extensive Canadian healthcare ever conducted. It's available online. Our system was set up by Tommy Douglas (Kiefer Sutherlands grandfather) and he was voted the greatest Canadian in history a few years back in a public poll. I think that is indicative of how much Canadians value their healthcare system.
Cog
Canadians regularly grumble about doctor shortages and wait times, but I have never met one who wanted to go to to the US system. This was born out by the Romanow report, the most extensive Canadian healthcare ever conducted. It's available online. Our system was set up by Tommy Douglas (Kiefer Sutherlands grandfather) and he was voted the greatest Canadian in history a few years back in a public poll. I think that is indicative of how much Canadians value their healthcare system.
Cog
Thanks for that reminder Cog - I filled out my forms and made my parents fill them out to for the Romanov report. Couldn't find anything wrong with the system really - just tweaks here and there but nothing fundamental. In regards to Tommy - there was a great documentary about 2 years ago on him and how the system got started...it included a lot of information and arm twisting/threats by doctors in other parts of Canada and the USA trying to force him to back down. Very interesting. This man was responsible for one of the best things that ever happened in the country.
I believe that the USA will very soon move into a social/market system which will include a form of universal health care for all people. I am not sure how that will work or the impact it will have on various illegal groups but I'm sure it will work out. It will be good thing for the country..especially in preventative care. sammieswife.
I personally know Canadian nurses and physicians that moved down to the US. Not really that much better according to them.
Canada has the lowest doctor/patient ratio in the Western world.
Canada’s doctor-patient ratio is among the worst of any industrialized nation: with just 2.2 physicians per thousand people, it ranks 24th out of 28 OECD countries (well below the average of three). And among the G8 countries, Canada ranks dead last when it comes to physician supply.
http://www.macleans.ca/science/health/article.jsp?content=20080102_122329_6200
and
here is a graphic:
http://strangemaps.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/276540-poster594x420mm_eng.jpg
BTS
Canada has the lowest doctor/patient ratio in the Western world.
If it's not much worse in Canada, then they must have a very efficient system.
Interesting report on the UN website that i found - The Ugly Truth about Canadian Health Care. Just do a google search on Canadian Health Care. My basics are covered, I can go to the Dr for a cold and not have to worry about paying a bill, that is if I can find a Family Dr. I have to travel back to the town I grew up in - atleast an hour drive, because there are no physicians in any of the other surrounding cities (there are 4 within a 20-30 min drive). There are alot of things that are not covered, but the basics are there.
Here is a Canadian editorial. Maybe we can learn from mistakes made by others...BTS
by Klaus Rohrich
July 12, 2004
Last week John Kerry called for a national healthcare system in the U.S., like the one in Canada. If you Americans are planning to institute a national universal healthcare system similar to ours, you might want to look somewhere other than Canada for the ideal model.
To give you a brief overview of Canada’s Universal healthcare system, it all started off well enough and ran like a top for many years. I remember when it was normal to call a doctor and get an appointment the same day, when one could get to see a specialist the next day or when someone needed a by-pass operation he or she didn’t have to wait a year to get it. Of course, in those days health care
wasn’t exactly free, either. You see, all Canadians (except those who truly could not afford it) had to pay a monthly premium for their coverage.
Then the federal Liberals (the equivalent of your Democrats) decided to pass the Canada Health Act, which made medical coverage a basic human right. The act stipulated that health care was to be provided by the government only and that any form of private care was illegal. It put the burden of paying for healthcare into the hands of taxpayers, as the service would now be paid from the government’s general coffers.
In addition, there were numerous other provisions, such as controlling costs by limiting doctors’ salaries and keeping nurses and other healthcare professionals at relatively low wages.
So the first thing that happened was that the doctors threatened to go on strike. The government called their bluff and told them to go ahead, but the doctors chickened out. Next, many of our best doctors moved to the United States, where government was not going to limit the amount of moneythey could earn.
Of course, the end result is predictable. Most jurisdictions in Canada now have a doctor shortage, despite the government’s denial of this stark reality. Anyone without a family physician is forced to attend a soviet-style walk-in clinic to receive routine medical care. As transient physicians staff these clinics, there is no relationship that develops between the doctor and his patients and items such as annual physical examinations are not available in these clinics. If one’s family doctor should retire, move or become deceased, then all of the doctor’s patients will be scrambling to find a new doctor. Yet, the government appears to be creating this doctor shortage on purpose, as enrollment in medical schools is strictly regulated and only a certain number of applicants are ever accepted, regardless of their academic standing.
The patient to doctor ratio varies from 2,000 to 4,000 patients per doctor, depending on geographical location. And many tests and procedures are beginning to be de-listed; meaning that the public healthcare system will no longer pay for them. Among these are items such as PSA examinations, which is used to screen for prostate cancer in men, physiotherapy or chiropractic treatments, certain dermatological procedures, such as the removal of skin growths and eye examinations.
The province of Ontario has recently decided that its "free health care" is now subject to an annual premium (spelled T-A-X), imposed on every taxpayer in the province. While this has angered most Ontario taxpayers, the government is refusing to look at any other alternatives to the way it currently provides healthcare.
While on a recent visit to Toronto’s Orthopedic and Arthritic Hospital, a facility specializing in the treatment of bone and joint problems, I overheard the harried receptionist at the clinic explaining why the patient would have to wait four to five months to receive surgical treatment,
"There are only so many orthopedic surgeons to go around." She explained. The patient was fortunate to have seen a surgeon and was waiting for a date for his procedure. Prior to his appointment with the surgeon, the patient had to be referred in writing by his family doctor, which usually takes from four to six weeks. After the initial visit, the surgeon likely requested an MRI, or magnetic resonance imaging procedure to determine the severity of the problem. Getting an MRI in Canada can take up to six months, although many Canadians choose to cross the border into the U.S. where they can get it next day for about $450.
After the MRI, the results of which can take as long as six to eight weeks to get back to the doctor, the patient has to make another appointment with the surgeon to find out if the procedure is warranted. From there an appointment is made, which usually takes two to three months. So from the time that one is aware of a serious problem, such a herniated vertebral disc until the time, the problem is actually dealt with, as much as a whole year can pass.
Other procedures can take longer, as in the case of hip or knee replacements, which can take three to four years of waiting.
Those Canadians who can afford it (including, by the way Paul Martin, our Prime Minister) will get their medical treatment at private clinics in the U.S. to avoid waiting. Often individuals who do this are vilified by other Canadians as "line jumpers", even though they jump the line outside the public healthcare system and pay for it themselves.
From where I sit, the U.S. healthcare system looks pretty good. Yes, it’s expensive, but the facilities are in place to provide care in a timely fashion. Those unable to afford medical treatment can still receive treatment provided at charity or county hospitals.
The Canadian healthcare system is currently threatening to collapse of its own inertia. Yes, it’s a good system we have here in Canada, so long as you make sure you never get sick. That’s why Americans would be well advised to look at a more flexible system than ours.
