WAS DISFELLOWSHIPPING FOR CHRISTIANS TODAY?

Bill Parker

Tuesday, December 11, 2001

In an effort to keep this as short as possible I am going to try and focus only a bare minimum of scriptures realizing that no one today appreciates too long a post.

In Luke 12:48 these words are found, in part: … “To whom much was given much will be demanded.” The 1st Century Christians were given the “Gifts of the Spirit.” Having these special gifts they were empowered to read the heart’s of individuals. This can be seen by reading Acts 5:1-12. THEY were told in 1 Corinthians 5:13 to “remove the wicked man from among themselves. Having that special ability they knew who the “wicked one’s were. So they could follow that direction. They practiced “righteous judgment” as commanded by Jesus. {John 7:24} We all know that those special gifts were done away with! {1 Corinthians 13:8-11}

Now if someone can stand up look me in the eye and tell me that he can read the heart, that he has that special ability, then by all means carry on with that practice. If he can also tell me that Jehovah has transferred power of judging to him and removed it from the messiah, and the Messiah has relinquished that power to him, then he is on solid ground.. If none of that has occurred, then he isn’t! {John 5:22,27; 7: 24}

IN the parable of the wheat and the weed’s which was a parable for those alive during the harvest season we read this about this matter of judging: …’do you want US to go and weed it out’ “NO, because when you weed out the darnel you might pull up the wheat with it. Let them both grow until the harvest; and at harvest time, I shall say to the reapers” … Who were the reapers? …”the reapers are angels” Jesus said. There was a danger that while collecting out the weeds they may have inadvertently collected out the wheat like one’s. That danger was there because they were unable to read the hearts at that particular time.. {Matthew 13:24-30,41} I wonder what part of “NO” they find so difficult to understand? Only the Messiah can read the heart now. Only HE HAS BEEN APPOINTED TO clean up the congregation’s world-wide. It is the work of no sinful man.

The Governing Body along with its world-wide Elder arrangement are in very serious trouble because the disfellowshipping with its practice of marking and shunning is not for today and even more is as unscriptural a practice to say the very least. As cruel a practice as you could get!

dhook

Here's a thought... Does your Scriptural rebuttal of Disfellowshipping then mean that the Pope in power at the time of Adolph Hitler's rampage across Europe was right in his not excumunicating Hitler because of his anti-Christian activities?

TweetieBird

dhook, would excommunicating Hitler have altered history? Would he have changed his behavior simply because he was now in a disfellowshipped state? I personally do not think so.

I've known too many people that were disfellowshipped that "straightened up" long enough to get reinstated just so they could talk to their friends and family again, their behavior didn't change, they just became more careful about their wrongdoing, careful not to get caught again.

dhook

Dear TweetieBird!
You're quite right, I suspect, but then how can we be certain of anything? Hitler was Hitler, afterall. I was disfellowshipped and the change I experienced was more of a bitterness toward everyone associated with the JWs, perhaps toward the world in general. Today, however, I'm at peace with the past... and leave it lie where it is, in the past.

Bill Parker

dhook:
I was discussing what was going on in the true christian congregation! Were any of the Pope's ever associated with the followers of Christ? What they did or didn't do has no relevevce in this discusion. The entire empire of Religion has been involved in some of the most viscious atroceties. I was not looking at what has been going on in those particular institutions. The fact that the Pope didn't disfellowship Hitler.The entire religious system at that time needed that! But was any sinful human in a position to do that? You and I both know that that is just so much EL-Torro Pottie, don't we?

anewperson

DISFELLOWSHIPPING (SHUNNING), WHY UNBIBLICAL AT ANYTIME: A "majority" is not the same as "all" and so when at 2 Corinthians 2:6 Paul says "This rebuke given by the majority is sufficient for such a man," he is indicating that although he had asked the Corinthian Christians to shun (disfellowship/excommunicate) a man who had done wrong and who was now deserving forgiveness, yet a MINORITY of those Christians had decided to not do as he said.

Yes, even though probably the most influential apostle or elder of his day, Paul was still not a spiritual dictator and what he said or even ordered could be and sometimes was freely viewed as suggestions or recommendations, sincerely given but not mandatory. The Bible does not record that the minority not going along with the "majority" were in any way condemned by Paul. Yet today some groups like Mennonites, Jehovah's Witnesses etc rigidly practice shunning and members who do not do so as told are also marked or fully shunned.

Consider too the example of David and Jonathan. Jonathan was the son of the man Saul whom God had told Samuel to annoint as the first king of Israel. Saul became jealous of David and ordered everyone including Jonathan to disfellowship David. However, even though Saul was an annointed elder, even King of Israel, Jonathan still disregarded the shunning order and the Bible approves of their continuing friendship which means that God also approved it. (1Sa 18:1)

As the Bible also says there is a time and a place for everything. The apostles, appointment directly from an original living apostle etc are now all gone but what is perfect does still remain -- the power of Godly, Christian love. The words disfellowship and shun are not even in the Bible while the words and concepts of love and mercy occur in numerous places. Anyone may offer friendly counsel or suggestions about who may or may not be good association for us, but we are all simply Christian friends, no dictators allowed, and Christ is the only one spiritual Leader over all of us. (Mt 23:10) This is the Real Truth about shunning and disfellowshipping.

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You Know

Is this a joke, or are you for real? At any rate it is nonsense. Here's why: On the occasion when Paul told the Corinthians to remove the wicked man from their midst, Paul did not use any miraculous power to peer into the heart of the fornicating Corinthian. On the contrary, his whole line of reasoning was that the Corinthian congregation was morally lax and should use their power of reason to determine for themselves that such shameful conduct had no place among Jehovah's holy ones. That's why Paul cited the fact that the notorious deeds of the man who had a wife of his father's was so morally debased that the unbelievers of the world even judged such actions to be morally wrong. Paul empowered the Corinthians to judge those on the inside of the congregation, not by any supernatural powers imparted to them, but by reason of their ability to determine right from wrong and to judge accordingly. The elders of the congregation filled the same role as the older men of the Israelite community in applying the law and judging. That's why in fact they are called "older men."

As for the parable of the wheat and the weeds, that has nothing to do with disfellowshipping. The parable shows how Christ will ultimately judge between those who belong to him and those who prove false to their claim. It is similar to the eventual separating of the sheep from the goats that occurs during the final judgment. In accord with Paul's injunction to the Corinthians to clear out the bad leaven from their midst, one of the distinguishing marks of authentic Christianity is that it takes judicial action against its members who become corrupting influences in the congregation. / You Know

dhook

As 1 Cor. 8:2 (NWT)says... "If anyone thinks he has aquired knowledge of something, he does not yet know it just as he ought to know it." Having made that point, who can really say anything with any degree of certainty? Not I, for sure. All I can do is say "It appears to be such." Remember... only a fool says he's positive. Am I sure of that, you ask? Absolutely positive!

Englishman

You Know,

Well I'm glad that you can at last see how serious something has to be before shunning is an appropriate response. Banging Daddy's crumpet is a no-no in any society, and I dare say that most people would want nothing to do with such a fellow and would act accordingly without needing to consult some religious org.

Has it occured to you that probably the congregation were simply mis-applying Jesus' instructions to love their neighbour, whereas everyone else (the nations) were following their instincts and giving this chap the cold shoulder?

Seems to me that Paul was simply prodding them to follow their instincts.

Englishman.

Bring on the dancing girls!

Bill Parker

dhook: Your application of the scripture at 1 Corinthians is quite correct as far as it goes. Look at what Jesus stated at John 15:15. "But I have called you my friends, BECAUSE I HAVE MADE KNOWN TO YOU EVERYTHING THAT I HAVE LEARNED FROM MY FATHER." Where did He reveal all of that? It's all in the Bible isn't it? All you and I have to do is sit down and start turning those pages and we will learn if our hearts are right. If they are not we will learn nothing!
Anyone can gain a comrehensive knowledge of the Bible if he puts forthj the needed effort.

WAS DISFELLOWSHIPPING FOR CHRISTIANS TODAY?

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