WAS DISFELLOWSHIPPING FOR CHRISTIANS TODAY?

by Bill Parker 18 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  GinnyTosken

  LOL at Englishman's "banging Daddy's crumpet"!

  [Edited to add: For those who may not have read Englishman's post above, I am referring to a phrase Englishman used. I do not mean to imply that Englishman banged his Daddy's crumpet.]

  Ginny
• 

  Joseph Joachim

  I am going to try and focus only a bare minimum of scriptures realizing that no one today appreciates too long a post.

  Actually, twisting scriptures to make a point is what no one today appreciates. It's incredible that most Americans are still trying to make sense of the Bible. Outside the US people have realized for a long time that (A) the Bible contradicts itself so many times that you can prove anything you want by picking out the right texts and (B) the world today is so different from what it was 2000 years ago that it makes little sense to transplant organizational procedures from first century Christianity.

  Were any of the Popes ever associated with the followers of Christ?

  John XXIII was a better follower of Christ than any of the Governing Body members (past or present).
• 

  Bill Parker

  You Know:
  Look at Acts 5: 1-12!
  Peter was able to read the heart to the extent that he knew Ananias and Sapphira had committed the "sin against the Holy Spirit." They were struck down dead for that sin. No man today has that ability. not you, not the Governing Body, not any so called "older One" or Elder in whatever congregation you can name. They were all instructed to "judge with righteous judgment." {John 7:24} What does that mean? Isaiah 11:3,4 tells you how to do that in imitation of Christ. Read it! Can you do that? In order to do judging the way marked out there in imitation of Christ you would have to be able to read the heart! The early Apostles were empowred to do that. They did! No one today is. Your reasoning is incorrect! The Society has frightened you out of you using your own reasoning abilities. They have in point of fact suceeded in padlocking your mind. AS they have with so many others. None will bother to follow the counsel given in 1 John 4:1. "TEST the inspired expression" How much more so should you test the uninspired expression.? You blindly accept everything the Society teaches you without testing anything. To you it is carved in stone. It is nothing of the kind. "ARE YOU FOR REAL?
• 

  You Know

  Look at Acts 5: 1-12! Peter was able to read the heart to the extent that he knew Ananias and Sapphira had committed the "sin against the Holy Spirit." They were struck down dead for that sin.

  This is a classic example of Scripture twisting. Jehovah God did in fact reveal to Peter that Ananias and Sapphira had blasphemed the holy spirit. That is something no human can judge. The obvious fact though that you are omitting is that Jehovah did not disfellowship Anaias and Sapphira. He executed them! There's more than a slight difference. When Paul spoke of handing various apostate individuals over to Satan he wasn't authorized to execute them. They were merely put out of the household of God. In the case of Anaias and his wife, that served as a portent for the newly instituted Christian congregation, not only serving notice that Jehovah was in their midst and could see what they did in secret, as he had been previously in the Israelite camp, but that also the apostles were empowered to announce Jehovah's judicial decisions, as had Moses and other Judges been empowered. Another noticable difference between the account in Acts and the issue in Corinth, is that Peter was miraculously made aware of the sin that took place in secret. Inthe case of the man sleeping with his father's wife it was well known in the entire community of Corinth.Paul said that "fornication is reported among you." So God didn't reveal that to Paul by means of his spirit. It apparently has common knowledge that such scandelous behavior existed in the congregation. Jehovah did not perform any sort of miracle to uncover the sin in the eyes of Paul, so your comparison is not correct at all.

  They were all instructed to "judge with righteous judgment." {John 7:24} What does that mean?

  That means that primarily the elders use Jehovah's word when they judge. It means that they are using righteous judgment when they expel unrepentant fornicators and homosexuals and dopers and apostates and drunkards because that is part of Jehovah's judicial decree that such individuals should not mix in company with his holy people. Again, you are overlooking the obvious, and that is that when Jesus said to judge with righteous judgment, it indicates first and foremost that Christians are authorized to make judgments. The very Scripture you cited proves my point.

  The early Apostles were empowred to do that.

  That's not true. There was only special circumstance that involved sinning against the holy spirit which as I pointed out did not end with a disfellowshipping, but rather everlasting death. The fact of the matter is, that Jehovah never miraculously empowers his servants to do what they can do for themselves. In the case of judging sinners within the congregation that is something that an elder can become trained and qualified to do. In fact Jehovah requires that his shepherds use their own powers of reason to judge these types of things.

  The Society has frightened you out of you using your own reasoning abilities. They have in point of fact suceeded in padlocking your mind.

  How so? The Watchtower doesn't enter in to this. I have not consulted with the Watchtower or quoted from their writtings. I don't need to. I know the Bible and I have succesfully used the Scriptures to defend the practice of disfellowshipping. You have not correctly used the Bible to make your point. How then do you suppose that am I frightened by the Watchtower or not using my reasoning abilities? The truth is: I am not frightened by apostates or taken in by their lame reasonings.

  None will bother to follow the counsel given in 1 John 4:1. "TEST the inspired expression" How much more so should you test the uninspired expression.? You blindly accept everything the Society teaches you without testing anything.

  You have resorted to mere lunatic ravings Bill. / You Know
• 

  Englishman

  Gosh, Bill:

  You have resorted to mere lunatic ravings Bill. / You Know

  He used your name at the same time as he insulted you. WoW, an honour indeed, print it off and save it as a memento for your children.

  Englishman.

  Bring on the dancing girls!
• 

  Cygnus

  I just wanted to comment that I really do appreciate You Know's comments over the years, because when I engage anti-JWs in Yahoo chat rooms, I mimic his attitude and language to such an extent it totally pisses people off to the highest extreme, and it's SO FUNNY.

  Thanks, Bob. I totally think you're cool, dude.

  "Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules." -- The Big Lebowski
• 

  NeonMadman

  For once I actually agree (at least partially) with You Know...

  At least to the extent that Bill Parker is twisting scripture in his arguments on this subject.

  Note what Bill says:

  The 1st Century Christians were given the “Gifts of the Spirit.” Having these special gifts they were empowered to read the heart’s of individuals. This can be seen by reading Acts 5:1-12. THEY were told in 1 Corinthians 5:13 to “remove the wicked man from among themselves. Having that special ability they knew who the “wicked one’s were. So they could follow that direction. They practiced “righteous judgment” as commanded by Jesus. {John 7:24}

  There is no scripture I know of in which 'righteous judgment' is shown to be a gift of the spirit, akin to speaking in tongues or prophecy. Since your whole argument hangs on that premise, you will have to prove that assertion before any of the rest of your arguments will stand.

  In Acts 5, verses 3 and 4 demonstrate clearly that what was in operation was the Holy Spirit, not some spiritual gift that Peter possessed. It would really be more accurate to say thet Peter was speaking under direct inspiration than that he was exercising a 'gift of righteous judgment', since no such gift is described in the Bible.

  At John 7:24, Jesus was not offering instruction about congregational procedure, nor was he discussing spiritual gifts to be given; he was chiding the crowd because, after he performed a miracle, they accused him of being demon-possessed. You are using this scripture completely out of context when you say,

  No man today has that ability. not you, not the Governing Body, not any so called "older One" or Elder in whatever congregation you can name. They were all instructed to "judge with righteous judgment." {John 7:24}

  That verse has no reference to elders or the Christian congregation; it was addressed to unbelieving Jews. To use it in the fashion you are using it is to misrepresent its meaning. At no time that gifts of the spirit are listed is 'righteous judgment' among them; you are inventing that gift on the basis of scriptures twisted out of their context, and your whole line of reasoning hangs on it. There is no scriptural basis at all for your teaching.

  Tom
  "The truth was obscure, too profound and too pure; to live it you had to explode." ---Bob Dylan
• 

  dubla

  yk-

  nice to see you out of hiding....i didnt think wed hear from you at least until the "turn of the year" when the central banks will supposedly be bankrupt. i know im preparing for the worst.....no new years party for me this year!

  aa
• 

  dubla

  yk-

  so as not to completely sidetrack the thread, ill respond to a little of your "nonsense" as well:

  How so? The Watchtower doesn't enter in to this. I have not consulted with the Watchtower or quoted from their writtings. I don't need to. I know the Bible and I have succesfully used the Scriptures to defend the practice of disfellowshipping.

  just becuase you havent "consulted with the watchtower" on this particular thread is really a paper thin argument (as are all your arguments).......the FACT is that you wouldnt have ANY of your beliefs on disfellowshipping, and wouldnt have a CLUE as to which scriptures to use/twist in defending such a unscriptural practice if it werent for your fearless leaders at the wtbts. regardless of what you quote on this thread, ALL your false beliefs come from the watchtower.

  aa