Leander, you are on a roll, man. You've had some of the best posts in recent weeks, as far as I'm concerned. I have many of the same thoughts/questions.
Why the bible does'nt make sense to me
by Leander 34 Replies latest jw friends
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Siddhashunyata
Compare the interpretation of the " Tree of The Knowledge of Good And Bad" with a consistent interpretation of "The Tree Of Life". Both were in the Garden. Both were literal but symbolic, like the World Trade Towers. Now try to make that consistent interpretation work according to The Watchtower's reasoning. It will become apparrent that the the legal ideas they raise are ,indeed, sophmoric and that some other meaning must be understood. Note that Adam and Eve were not driven out of the Garden because they ate from the Tree of Knowledge. They were condemned to die for this! They were driven out because they might eat from the Tree of Life Understanding this will impact the Watchtower's theology and the Bible itself. Go into it.
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Unclepenn1
>So with all of those odds stacked up against us, according to the bible we're supposed to ignore all fleshly desires and imitate Jesus a man who was created in perfection.
Leander, I think your ideas are a bit flawed in this post. We are not asked to just have 'will power' or anything like that. The Holy Spirit has been given to change our desires from serving Satan to serving God. Before I knew Christ I smoked and drank alcohol every day. I used drugs and many other things to keep myself enslaved to my desires. When I got saved, God freed me from those desires. I don't have to get nervous if I am around a bunch of alcohol or drugs. I dont desire that anymore, He changed me from the inside. That is what God wants to do, transform our hearts to serve and please Him. Not by rigorous religious works, but by His Spirit. Interesting topic. Also, God is not just trying to prove a point to mankind or the devil, He has given us freewill and we decide to choose God or reject Him. Are you not pleased with the fact that God gave you freewill and didn't make you like a chatty Kathy doll, when you pull the string you would say "I love you Lord". Instead He gave you a mind, a conscience and a choice. Choose Christ or reject Him. Salvation waits in the balance. I would love to tell you more about it. Email me if you like ( [email protected])
Penn
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Leander
Unclepenn - I guess the issues I have are with the fact that mankind is for the most part being punished for giving into what comes natural to them as imperfect humans. Its one thing for a perfect person to deviate from normal acceptable desires to something erroneous, but as an imperfect human our basic desires are contrary to whats in the bible.
For example lets look at the area of sex. In our society and in our imperfect state its a perfectly natural thing to want to have sex with those we are attracted to whether we are married to them or not. In fact this view is so prevailing that its almost considered unnatural or extremely rare for a person to reach a certain age without engaging in sex before marriage. Many JWs try to follow the bible's counsel in this matter but many of them either give into their desires, suffer from depression from suppressing those desires or some may be able to get married to satisfy those desires. However even among those who get married to try and avoid sinning they are usually quite a few who find themselves in bad relationships because the only reason they married was to be able to have sex without violating scriptural priniciples.
So the point I'm trying to get at is this, because of sin mankind is strongly inclined to do exactly the opposite of whats in the bible. Its not because people are all evil but its because of their inherited sinful state. To illustrate its like a parent baking a cake and putting that cake in front of hungry children and then telling the children that they will be punished for eating the cake. The cake looks and smells good and all of the children know that it will taste good as well. What do you expect those children to do? Now in addition to the tempatation of the cake, there are some older children in the room. These older kids are using every trick in the book to get the first group children to eat the cake. What do you expect those children to do?
As far as the freewill issue goes I've given that a lot of thought as well. Is it really free will if you have only one option for survival? If someone had a gun to your head and told you to pick up an object or else you would die, what would you do?
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forgetmenot
Your quote: "For example lets look at the area of sex. In our society and in our imperfect state its a perfectly natural thing to want to have sex with those we are attracted to whether we are married to them or not." My comment: Who said sex was a sin and that it was a result of imperfect sin that we want it? No way. I think that God only meant sex when you didn't have it out of love.
Do you know the saying "you only miss a good thing until you don't have it"? Well maybe God is trying to get this across to us. And obviously it didn't work in the garden for God to just tell us that this is a good thing. Only after we have experienced life on earth, and all it's hellish aspects, can we really appreciate the openess we can have with God if we so choose to. And maybe only after we're dead and with God (I believe in a very diffrent after-life than most people but I do believe the almost everyone thinks that some profound openness with happen after you die) in a true open state when love can be felt in it's extreme raw state will we realize that God's love is worth so much.
And maybe God realized after Adam and Eve sinned that maybe instead of letting humans into a paradise first (then having them mess up and get kicked out and have to suffer), he should make them suffer first and then give them a paradise. Maybe then they won't take it for advantage. Hope this has SOMETHING to do with your post.
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crownboy
You're right on with your points, Leander.
The whole "free will" thing has always been a sore spot for me, even when I was a fervent believer. It can't really be free will if we only have one viable choice. Sure, God created us with the ability to make our own choices, but what good is that if only one choice is right? It's like a multiple choice exam; you can pick any answer you like, it's your "free will", but the teacher will only accept one answer as correct, so do you really have multiple choices? (I like the "gun to your head" illustration, it's what I usually think).
Your thoughts about our natural sinful state is also very good. Adam& Eve were perfect, we aren't, so we're at a much bigger disadvantage than they were. However, we're judged by the same harsh standard. Unfair if you ask me.
Go therefore and baptize the people in the name of the father and of the son... what the hell, we just need to bring up the yearbook numbers!
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SEAKEN2001
Most of the argumentation here suposes that the characters in the Bible are or were real, such as a real Adam & Eve, or a real Satan. What happens to your argument if you think of these Biblical stories as alegories, or stories that were intended to lead the reader toward a particular conclusion about the mysteries of life?
I don't think it's too far fetched to beleive it was never God's intention for humans to be anything other than what they are. In that case death is normal, in whatever form it overtakes us. Most of the arguments about God and Satan circle around the idea that we have something to fear from Satan and that God can save us from whatever it is. But if we just look around we don't see a real Satan or real God. These are images for our mind. They are intended to teach us how to get through this life but need not be taken literally.
As far a sex goes, society, not God, shapes our idea ofwhat is or isn't acceptable. The desire of the forbidden is your subconscious telling you that there is something wrong with the system and inviting you to consider other possibilities. I'm not sure it's some force of imperfection as if we are somehow seperated from a perfect plain of existance and that if we were perfect we would have no socially unacceptable desires. There is no doubt that there is good and bad, even evil in our human society. But maybe that's just the way it is.
Some are convinced that God has personally taken them by the hand, giving them a holy spirit force that protects them, or at least guides them through life. Others are convinced that there is no good, only evil and suffering. I think it largely depends on your life experiences and how your mind reacts to them that determines on which side of this canyon of beliefs you will be on. I think both views are valid and correct.
Sean
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Tina
Excellent points Seaken!!
That's the problem,people have taken allegory,metaphor,myth archaic tribal law and have attempted to legislate humanity and its characteristics by it by portraying it literally.
Taken in the context of the times it was written is akin to Zeus,Osiris and other mythical stories that attempt to explain these 'mysteries'. All the ancient dieties are grounded in fear hero vs. enemy, and social control to define acceptable and unacceptable. Enjoyed your thoughts,TinaVive Bene
Spesso L'amore
Di Risata Molto!!! -
gambler
Why do you people think sex is sinful.Sex is a natural biological proses.Marage is a manmade formality.Biblethumpers need to study biology and they will find out that the human male is programed to spread his sperm to as many females as possible.Its in our genetic makeup.And females look for the best male.There is a reason girls like tall dark and hansome, its because short fat and ugly doesent give you the best offspring.Biology aint it a bitch.
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Unclepenn1
>It's like a multiple choice exam; you can pick any answer you like, it's your "free will", but the teacher will only accept one answer as correct, so do you really have multiple choices?
I dont think that is an apt description of free will. You are free to choose right and wrong. The guys in the Taliban chose to crash into the World Trade Center. They knew in their hearts it was wrong, just like you know it is wrong to sleep with your friends wife behind his back. You can find ways to justify it in your mind, but that does not change the fact that it is wrong. Does God just overlook evil and pretend it doesn't happen? Or does He meet out justice and irradicate evil? You have the choice and you control your destiny. What is so bad about that?
Penn